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Chess Bain Teaser

  1. Dec 22, 2005 #1
    Chess Brain Teaser

    Clearly the two players here have been moving foolishly in the play of this game so far.
    But from this point on, with white to move next, each side is to play to win or avoid the loss.
    White mates in how many moves.
    You must know and follow the rules of chess to logically figure this one out.
    So at first just give the number of moves without explaining the solution when you get it.
    NOTE: To see attached diagram it’s sometimes necessary to log out (Return to previously viewing) for the image to be viewable. Copy it and log in again.

    http://www.apronus.com/chess/
    to make chess diagrams online
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 22, 2005
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 22, 2005 #2

    berkeman

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    Staff: Mentor

    Well, PF definitely won't let me see it. What's the trick you're describing to see it? Log out, copy something and log in?
     
  4. Dec 22, 2005 #3
    Hidden text (not a solution but thoughts/questions/spoilers!) are Black King / Queen reversed on purpose? second thought, K/Q switch can't 'legally' happen but board could be 'legal' if black's side is really on the bottom i.e. all pieces somehow switched board sides
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2005
  5. Dec 22, 2005 #4
    It appears they also were pretty foolish in setting up the board, since somehow the black king and queen reversed themselves. Or, for the sake of argument, is black => white and white => black, meaning that white reversed its king and queen? Is this intentional and necessary for the solution to be relevant? Or is it assumed that the Kings and Queens line up as per usual?

    DaveE
     
  6. Dec 22, 2005 #5
  7. Dec 22, 2005 #6

    berkeman

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    Yeah, the board's set up wrong. It's physically impossible to get the black pieces in that arrangement with legal moves. It's even impossible for a corrected black arrangement to occur, since something had to take all the white pawns. Dumb puzzle.
     
  8. Dec 22, 2005 #7
    ok nevermind completely
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2005
  9. Dec 22, 2005 #8
    There is an answer , if you read the hidden text in my last note the road to the solution will be revealed! Oh, I get 4
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2005
  10. Dec 22, 2005 #9
    INCORRECT
    But your on the right track.
    As stated in the problem the players didn't get into this position by playing to win!
    However foolishly they moved the pieces or why, they moved them within the rules!
    I know 20questions with a correct answer to the number of moves to checkmate understands how to move the black Queen to a white square yet have all the black pawns on a single rank.
    Good job. 20questions.
    Yet them think a bit more before explaining it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2005
  11. Dec 22, 2005 #10
    edit: arrrgh, the one google image of a chessboard I looked at mislead me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2005
  12. Dec 22, 2005 #11
    aaaaah, I think I see what happened! now to figure out the number of moves.

    [color=#ededede]yea I get 4[/color]


    Great puzzle randal
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2005
  13. Dec 23, 2005 #12

    berkeman

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    You sure? Maybe the knights could jump out and take all the other pawns and jump back, but how the heck did the king and queen get swapped? Is that a mistake but the rest is correct?
     
  14. Dec 23, 2005 #13
    lol they switched sides like that ...pretty funny
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2005
  15. Dec 23, 2005 #14
    Mate in 4:
    1. Nc6, Nf3
    2. Nb4, Ne5
    3. Qxe5, any
    4. Nd3 mate
     
  16. Dec 23, 2005 #15

    berkeman

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    But that's not forced -- seems easy to avoid. And why are you moving black first?
     
  17. Dec 23, 2005 #16
    I'm not, the board is upside down.
     
  18. Dec 23, 2005 #17
    That of course is the Key to the logic of figuring this brain teaser.
    Good job for those with 4 as the correct answers.
    The chess part is easy once you break the logic.

    For those that haven’t seen this yet and may want to work on themselves I’ll leave the solution in white. (for those new to using white-out see the TOP sticky threads)

    How did they move that Queen:
    Impossible without moving a pawn!
    Therefore a black pawn was moved.
    But we most move all black pawns to a single rank!
    Therefore these pawns must be on the 7th rank
    and therefore we are viewing the board from black’s side of the board!

    Once we are 'outside the box' the rest is easy chess.
     
  19. Dec 23, 2005 #18

    berkeman

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    Okay, with Randall's hint I finally see the reversal part. Fine. But your 4-move mate is totally unforced. Why would black move a knight right where you can take it to help double up your attack? Given your first move, black has lots of defenses. Is there a mate in 4 sequence that takes into account all the defenses?
     
  20. Dec 23, 2005 #19
    hidden text: Black can only move either of his two knights, all his pawns are blocked from moving from the 7th row up to the 8th row by black's pieces, only the knights can jump over the pawns. White's knight can mate in 3 moves, black cannot free any other piece in time so can choose only to delay mate one move
     
  21. Dec 23, 2005 #20
    For example?
     
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