Chez Hélène - pronunciation

[DaveC426913]

This show was broadcast on CBC TV in the 60s. Does anyone remember it?

I am looking for the pronunciation for it.

Specifically, is the 'z' pronounced? Note that there may be a discrepancy between the 'correct' pronunciation and the way the show pronounced it - I don't know - that that is relevant.

 

[Keith_McClary]

I don't remember it, but there is info and samples:
https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=Chez+Hélène
https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=chez++pronunciation
https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=Hélène+pronunciation

 

[DaveC426913]

Yeah, I've explored the pronunciation of the individual words. Not conclusive.

 

[Mark44]

I'll take a stab at it- sheh ze laine'

The 'z' at the end of chez isn't normally pronounced, but if the following word starts with a vowel or a silent letter like h, then the z would be pronounced.

There's an area near Seattle named Beaux Artes, which is pronounced bo zarts. On its own, I believe beau (singular adjective) and beaux (plural adjective) would be pronounce the same, but for the reason I gave above, the 'x' is pronounced.

Something similar is what I've come to believe is the origin of the name of a mountainous area in Arkansas (and SE Missouri), the Ozarks. A map I saw some years ago showed the region back when the French owned it, with some mountains labelled Eaux Arcs (water arcs = rainbows?), which would be pronounced much the same as the current spelling.

Moi deux cents...

 

[PeroK]

I'll take a stab at it- sheh ze laine'

The 'z' at the end of chez isn't normally pronounced, but if the following word starts with a vowel or a silent letter like h, then the z would be pronounced.

It's called liaison.

https://www.lawlessfrench.com/pronunciation/liaisons/

 

[pinball1970]

It's called liaison.

https://www.lawlessfrench.com/pronunciation/liaisons/

Shez- hell-ane is how I would say it

Hard Z and H and draw out the -ane slightly

 

[PeroK]

Shez- hell-ane is how I would say it

Hard Z and H and draw out the -ane slightly

According to Google translate, or whatever it is, this may be an exception. For "chez Helene" it gives "shay aylen". Whereas, "chez Henri" would be "shayz-ongree".

The webpage I linked to mentions exceptions, but my French is faily basic.

 

[pinball1970]

According to Google translate, or whatever it is, this may be an exception. For "chez Helene" it gives "shay aylen". Whereas, "chez Henri" would be "shayz-ongree".

The webpage I linked to mentions exceptions, but my French is faily basic.

Chez nous – Z silent “Shay new”

Shay elane – presents a difficulty between y and Z and E for me- the other way flows more
I know more French than German say but my pronunciation is pretty awful. Its something one needs to practice.

 

[pbuk]

According to Google translate, or whatever it is, this may be an exception. For "chez Helene" it gives "shay aylen".

I agree, and so does the show's host Hélène Baillargeon (that is I agree it is an exception, I don't agree that 'ay' is the correct vowel sound: it should be much shorter than that, more like in 'egg'; also there is no 'g' sound in Henri).

I believe The reason this is an exception to the rule for Beaux Arts (if it were Artes then it would be Belles Artes) etc. is that the vowel sound in '...ez Hé...' is repeated and therefore easy to articulate.

Bear in mind also that this was a Canadian programme and French Canadian ≠ French.

 

[jack action]

«ez» has the exact same pronunciation as «é» in french (anyway, in that context). So «Ché Hélène» or - using a more english sound - «Chay Hélène»; no «z», no «H» no liaison, whatsoever.

It's is pronounced like the same «ez» found in «Voulez-vous coucher avec moi?»

The literal translation is «Hélène's» or «at Hélène's» as in «Wendy's» or «at McDonald's». Apparently, «chez» comes from the Latin «casa» which means «house».

 

[pbuk]

Something similar is what I've come to believe is the origin of the name of a mountainous area in Arkansas (and SE Missouri), the Ozarks. A map I saw some years ago showed the region back when the French owned it, with some mountains labelled Eaux Arcs.

Sure that wasn't 'aux Arcs'?

(water arcs = rainbows?)

rainbows are 'les arcs-en-ceil' (arcs in the sky). 'Water arcs' would be 'les arcs d'eau' (arcs of water) or 'les arcs en l'eau' (arcs in the water).

Moi deux cents...

Mes deux cents...

(Apologies for multiple edits - I'm having a bad day too...)

 

[Keith_McClary]

This seems to pronounce the final e in Hélène:

​

 

[pbuk]

This seems to pronounce the final e in Hélène:

I don't think so; this is more about how the vowel modifies the pronunciation of the final consonant (which is more pronounced in some French regional accents than others). For instance listen to how the speaker pronounces the English word 'name' at about 0:09: would you say he pronounces the final 'e'?

This is similar to the way in French poetry and song lyrics it is common to add an 'extra' syllable where it suits the scansion, for example the nursery song D'où viens-tu bergère:

 

[PeroK]

I agree, and so does the show's host Hélène Baillargeon (that is I agree it is an exception, I don't agree that 'ay' is the correct vowel sound: it should be much shorter than that, more like in 'egg'; also there is no 'g' sound in Henri).

I can't legislate for what I presume is your English pronunciation. The 'e' in egg to me is more like the French 'è' and 'é' is the sound in 'say'. There are few diphthongs in my Scottish vowels.

I don't pronounce the 'g' in 'ong' - and although it's not quite right, it's the nearest I could get to the French 'en'.

PS I pronounce the 'g' in 'longer', but not in 'long'. And in 'finger' (although I didn't used to!). But not in 'singer' or 'bringer'.

 

[Mark44]

Sure that wasn't 'aux Arcs'?

Your could be right; I might have misremembered what I read on the map, but it still makes my point about how the following letter alters the pronunciation of the preceding z, x, or s.

Mes deux cents...

I must have been absent that day in class ...

 

[PeroK]

I don't think so; this is more about how the vowel modifies the pronunciation of the final consonant (which is more pronounced in some French regional accents than others). For instance listen to how the speaker pronounces the English word 'name' at about 0:09: would you say he pronounces the final 'e'?

When I was learning a bit of French, one of the French speakers emphasised the final consonant to such an extent that it almost sounded like he was pronouncing the final 'e'. I always remember he said: "une assiette anglaise' with almost an unvoiced vowel at the end of each word.

 

[DaveC426913]

I agree, and so does the show's host Hélène Baillargeon

Perfect. This is exactly what I was looking for.

My intuition said that liaisons are the general case (thanks for that, PeroK) - and are mostly optional - but that this show had its name and that was its name.

The show creator pronounces it "Shay 'elen". QED.

 

[geordief]

Perfect. This is exactly what I was looking for.

My intuition said that liaisons are the general case (thanks for that, PeroK) - and are mostly optional - but that this show had its name and that was its name.

The show creator pronounces it "Shay 'elen". QED.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_h

Liaisons don't apply when you have ,(,as in this case) an "aspirated "h" following a "z" in "chez" (or an "s" in "les" ,for another example,)

The above list doesn't show people's names.Maybe the rules are more relaxed in those cases

 

[fluidistic]

French native speaker here. I know of no exception here, the z in the ''chez X'' is never pronounced I would say. When X is the name of a person. No liaison there.

 

[geordief]

What about other potential liaisons with names of people when they are preceded by prepositions (or other forms of the language) apart from "chez"?

Might there be some exceptions or do all personal names beginning with a vowel ,to the best of your knowledge exhibit this lack of liaison?

What about ,for instance "Le bon Antoine?" Could that be said either way?

 

[jack action]

What about other potential liaisons with names of people when they are preceded by prepositions (or other forms of the language) apart from "chez"?

Might there be some exceptions or do all personal names beginning with a vowel ,to the best of your knowledge exhibit this lack of liaison?

What about ,for instance "Le bon Antoine?" Could that be said either way?

'ez' pronounced as 'é' is a special case in French that comes from I don't know where. It is not a "normal" way (grammatically speaking) of writing that sounds. It is literally a direct replacement of the letter 'é' and therefore there are no liaisons possible.

Another more popular case would be the same sound 'é' written as 'er'. Here the same principle applies: You can literally replace 'er' with 'é' and therefore no liaisons are possible with the 'r' and a following vowel.

Here's an example including both cases: Vous voudriez aller à l'école. (You would like to go to school.) It could be [phonetically] written as Vous voudrié allé à l'école (no liaisons between vowels) and not something like Vous voudrié'z'allé'r'à l'école.

With "le bon Antoine", the 'n' is a consonant that is clearly pronounced, and the liaison with the following vowel is unavoidable.

 

[geordief]

So "chez un de nous" has no liaison?
I would have pronounced it.

Feels more comfortable to me ,but I am out of the way of immersion in the language.

Edit:a more in depth ,and archived discussion here if anyone is interested

https://french.stackexchange.com/qu...onunciation-of-chez-Albert-is-there-a-liaison

 

[jack action]

So "chez un de nous" has no liaison?
I would have pronounced it.

I wouldn't. Although, it doesn't sound weird doing the liaison.

Reading this example made me think of another example: "chez eux." There is clearly a liaison there, and I never heard it without one. Edit: Now I read your link and saw also "chez elle" and "allez-y", which also clearly need the liaison. But, from your link, the following rule baffles me:

La liaison est aussi obligatoire entre une préposition ne comportant qu’une syllabe et le mot qui suit.

Which states the liaison must be done with a single-syllable preposition (like 'chez'). At first, I read a preposition followed by a single-syllable word, which could have made sense to me. "Chez Albert" has clearly no liaison to me, I can't imagine anyone saying otherwise, and it sounds weird hearing the liaison. It sounds like someone who is lisping.

Full disclosure: French is my maternal language and I use it every day.

 

[fluidistic]

Yes, when the word after chez is not a name, liaison is possible (and always present?). Otherwise it would feel like chez Antoine means that the dude is called Zantoine.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm wondering if the idea of pronouncing the final "z" when followed by a word beginning with a vowel or "h" may not apply when the second word is a name (of an individual or a place).

After all, "Hélène" is a person's name. So it would seem strange for a francophone (i.e. a native French speaker) to hear the letter "z" pronounced in "Chez Hélène". Whereas with "chez eux", the "z" would more likely be pronounced because "eux" (the French word for "them") is clearly not referring to an individual's name or a place name.

So the pronunciation may be context-dependent.

@jack action , as a francophone from Quebec, does this make sense to you?

I would also welcome any commentary from PF members who are native French speakers from European countries on this matter (e.g. France, Switzerland, Belgium).

 

[PeroK]

Whereas with "chez eux", the "z" would more likely be pronounced because "eux" (the French word for "eye") is clearly not referring to an individual's name or a place name.

Perhaps you ought to consult a French dictionary. Les yeux are eyes. I'm not sure what visiting someone's eye or eyes might even mean!

 

[StatGuy2000]

'ez' pronounced as 'é' is a special case in French that comes from I don't know where. It is not a "normal" way (grammatically speaking) of writing that sounds. It is literally a direct replacement of the letter 'é' and therefore there are no liaisons possible.

I know that the French word "chez" (which can be translated to "to" or "at" a particular location, office, or individual's place") can be traced to the Old French word chiese or chese, ultimately coming from the Latin word casa (meaning "house").

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chez#Etymology_2

So it may have been the case that originally the "z" in French may have been pronounced, but a major consonant shift had taken place where the pronunciation was dropped (similar to the vowel and consonant shift that took place in English during the Middle Ages, and have been observed in languages like Portuguese). And thus the spelling is an artifact of the historic origin of the word, rather than reflecting the actual pronunciation of the word.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Perhaps you ought to consult a French dictionary. Les yeux are eyes. I'm not sure what visiting someone's eye or eyes might even mean!

My mistake. My French is a bit rusty, and have corrected my post accordingly. But my original point about an individual or a place name still stands.

 

[PeroK]

But my original point about an individual or a place name still stands.

There's definitely a lot of liaison in aux Etats-Unis.

 

[jack action]

After all, "Hélène" is a person's name. So it would seem strange for a francophone (i.e. a native French speaker) to hear the letter "z" pronounced in "Chez Hélène". Whereas with "chez eux", the "z" would more likely be pronounced because "eux" (the French word for "them") is clearly not referring to an individual's name or a place name.

So the pronunciation may be context-dependent.

@jack action , as a francophone from Quebec, does this make sense to you?

First, I never really studied the rules of word liaisons, I just do it naturally, without thinking. This thread made me look for the rules for which my best reference is my local government office for the French language. Going through their website, what comes naturally to me, is really complicated to explain. They have the mandatory liaisons, the prohibited liaisons, and the optional liaisons. They even have the false liaisons, which are liaisons that people make by mistake when they shouldn't.

Here's a translation from the site that resumes the complexity of the practice:

The rules of binding are complex and can be explained by phonetic, morphological and syntactic factors. These rules also vary according to the language level; thus, more connections are made in the sustained language (in an official speech, for example) than in the everyday language, and less in the colloquial or popular style. Liaison is also a phenomenon that evolves over time, since we have already made many more links than we do today.

Some bindings are mandatory in all contexts, while others are prohibited in all contexts. Finally, others are optional.

This explains the previous example I referred to ("chez un de nous"), where I wouldn't do the liaison when talking to my friends, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear it in a more formal context. It sounds a lot more pompous to do the liaison. Doing the liaison in such a case would make you sound like this in English:

​

There's nothing specifically related to proper names on the website. But I can assure everyone that I cannot think of a single case where there is a liaison with "chez" followed by a proper name. I could see this liaison being done to caricature a very pompous person, to laugh at them. To compare in English, in the next video, if Trevor Noah wanted to impersonate the French upper class, he would do the liaison in "chez Antoine" to get the same effect as in English:

​

But there is always a liaison if you say "Sainte-Hélène" or "Saint-Antoine". So what are the specific rules to explain this? I really couldn't tell and there must be some doctoral thesis about this somewhere.

 

[geordief]

What(and I am aspirating the "h" ) about Saint Ouen @jack action ?

 

[jack action]

What(and I am aspirating the "h" ) about Saint Ouen @jack action ?

Never heard that name before (you can count on the French for the weirdest names) but I would do the liaison ... and people from France do as well:

French person speaking English about Saint-Ouen:

​

French person speaking French about Saint-Ouen:

​

 

[DrDu]

In contrast to many other languages, French has a normative organisation, L'Istitut Francaise. On their web page, I found the following discussion, from which I conclude that the "H" in Hélène is muet, like most words of graeco-romanic origin:
https://www.academie-francaise.fr/solene-o-france
Hence I would bind "Chez Hélène".

 

[geordief]

In contrast to many other languages, French has a normative organisation, L'Istitut Francaise. On their web page, I found the following discussion, from which I conclude that the "H" in Hélène is muet, like most words of graeco-romanic origin:
https://www.academie-francaise.fr/solene-o-france
Hence I would bind "Chez Hélène".

Seems to be what they are saying ,but geordief répond que "l'Académie Française is a joke"

According to them the regular usage is an "erreur".

 

[DrDu]

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/289947341.pdf
This article states that the liaison is facultative after chez, but certainly, as Helene is muet, it is possible. So either pronounciation is correct.