Chi: A real force?

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  • #301
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Strange ><. I wished the people claiming these abilities would actually go out and seek testing, I know I certainly would if chi existed and I could use it.
That may be one of the best arguments AGAINST the existence of Chi, and well said too.
 
  • #302
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I have practiced qigong for about 18 years. From my experience, I know qi is a real force. I have an extensive scientific background, so it was a bit of a stretch at first to let go and experiment with it. Analysis doesn't help with the feeling of it, it happens best when you relax and do the forms/exercises automatically. Qi doesn't flow through a tense muscle. You can see demos on YouTube that show people using force (external forms like karate) against experienced practitioners - they always lose.
 
  • #303
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From my experience, I know qi is a real force. I have an extensive scientific background
That's pretty paradoxical bunch of statements...

You can see demos on YouTube that show people using force (external forms like karate) against experienced practitioners - they always lose.
Doesn't a "demo" usually mean a pre-planned demonstration, in which there are no losers or winners?

There are no videos on youtube about real fights (or fighting sports events) in which chi would be used successfully against a practitioner of a more practical style. I promise to be interested if somebody proves me wrong with one counter example.
 
  • #304
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I have practiced qigong for about 18 years. From my experience, I know qi is a real force. I have an extensive scientific background, so it was a bit of a stretch at first to let go and experiment with it. Analysis doesn't help with the feeling of it, it happens best when you relax and do the forms/exercises automatically. Qi doesn't flow through a tense muscle. You can see demos on YouTube that show people using force (external forms like karate) against experienced practitioners - they always lose.
The only thing we care about is if you can do a hadouken or not.
 
  • #305
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The only thing we care about is if you can do a hadouken or not.
Hadouken :biggrin:

That's pretty nerdy stuff. There's even a schematic picture of the technique...
 
  • #306
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I would gravitate towards the most logical explanation, and for me that would rule out the supernatural.

Hypoxia may be incorrect but of course that doesn't mean that by default an unexplainable, unquantifiable and supernatural force was therefore involved. It just means we might not have the knowledge to explain it satisfactorily yet.

Chimps, I think the point here is that people are claiming Chi is NOT supernatural, but rather an undefined natural phenomena.

And, based on personal experience, I believe that he was told how to exercise the Chi, but not what he would experience/feel. His experiences were then confirmed as correct or incorrect by the teacher. Since the sensations felt are difficult to describe objectively.

This does not rule out mind generated sensations, but it seems that you are discounting his experiences without consideration. The whole point of science is to keep an open mind.
How about suggesting experiments that might help prove or disprove the existence of Chi.

Personally I believe the exercises to provoke something (Psychosomatic or not), mainly because of the similarity between the descriptions of various practitioners. I don't know what it is, but I do believe there is something there that bears investigation.
 
  • #307
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Ok, well, I've just starting Bagua QiGong (I get trained for free by a family friend) and you CAN feel what these people are calling Chi! Although, for me to feel it requires tendonal/muscle/whatever stretching in the hand forearm area. Your hand starts to "pump", as if there's air rushing through it. It is a noticeable, real, quite intense and very interesting feeling. There are a few hand positions that can make this effect. One is rotating your left hand as far left as you possible can without snapping your arm off, while having your 4 fingers outstretched as far as you possibly can and your thumb outstretched but pushed inwards a little so that there's a large ball-shaped groove in the middle of your hand, and hold that position. I don't think it's constricting veins and the resultant increase in pressure as blood pumps through them, as it's not in sync with my heart beat (I can sometimes feel ~20 small "pumps" in a few seconds).

Now, the person that's teaching me says that after more training you can;
A) Induce this same feeling through you head (so up your front, over your head, and down your spine).
B) You can induce mild pumping without actually doing anything, but just by thinking. (Although, this could be a type of autogenics).

I have no reason to suspect he is fibbing and I'm going to be trained to that level eventually anyway so it would be silly to lie, A) would be extremely interesting.

He also claims you can move the Chi into whatever area you desire. Although, I'm not sure if he means you can move the actual obvious pumping to a desired area, I will ask him this.

I'll report back when I'm better trained.

rplatter said:
Personally I believe the exercises to provoke something (Psychosomatic or not), mainly because of the similarity between the descriptions of various practitioners. I don't know what it is, but I do believe there is something there that bears investigation.
Yes, it is a non-imaginary, obvious feeling.

Try it out right now, and hold the hand position for 5-30 minutes. I guarantee you will feel some slight pumping. This pumping will grow massively with practice. Another hand position is having your left arm outstretched in front of you, having your thumb pointing to your right sholder, your fingers stretchted upwards as far as possible, make a hollow ball in the middle of your hand, and have the left side of the palm of your left hand vertical to the ground with your forearm parallel to the ground. This angulation is impossible without practice, but go as far as is safe and you will eventually feel the pumping.

----

OH, another thing. He can make the pumping in his stomach just by thinking.

I know what you're thinking. He CAN actually do this. I put my hand on his stomach and I feel rumbling. I actually feel it.

He claims that some master in China he trains with can put his hand on his stomach and his stomach will grumble much stronger than usual. He states that his master can grumble his stomach area ("dantien") so that it's audible.

Also, whenever he swings his arm around (to get blood into it and to develop power, one of the exercises we do), you can feel pumping around his kidney area and next to his shoulder (on the soft part, near the neck). He says he didn't have this before he started going to China - he met some master who told him what exercise you do to enable this (Horse stance, body twisted as far as possible, swing arm). I haven't developed it yet but I've been very lazy with this exercise. What the hell?

----

Here's 1 of the hand positions you can try.
atqon.jpg
. The guy isn't doing it properly and therefore will feel no pumping but the corrections are in there. Hold it for 1 hour and you should feel significant pumping.
 
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  • #308
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Riveting tale, chap.
 
  • #309
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When I used to do karate, we had to channel our Qi to stand firmer.

It does strangely work - the firmer bit. If you tense your muscles to stand firm, you can easily be knocked over. However, if you imagine your body flowing through the floor - as if you were fixed with your surroundings - it's very hard to move you, bit like a tree :wink:

Also, Qi is a very handy Scrabble word :biggrin:
I heard that as well. One day I was asked to test a person's chi, and he got the opportunity to test his backside. From that point on, they told me my "chi is very strong."

I didn't have the heart to tell them they were very guillible, and stopped taking Aikido shortly thereafter.
 
  • #310
Ivan Seeking
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I heard that as well. One day I was asked to test a person's chi, and he got the opportunity to test his backside. From that point on, they told me my "chi is very strong."
I don't understand your point here. Are you saying that you beat someone who was supposed to have a strong chi?

I didn't have the heart to tell them they were very guillible, and stopped taking Aikido shortly thereafter.
So then you are drawing a conclusion based on what?
 
  • #311
Until the federal government allows the Dim Mak to be used as a method of execution, we may never know. :wink:

If people are saying that this is a real phenomenon, I would just ask... which one? Some descriptions sound like the result of good body dynamics in a particular strike, along with intense concentration... others claim a cessation of pain all the way to extinguishing a flame at a distance. If there is a single force at play in these and other examples, it would seem to be physically unlikely, but as a collection of biophysical principles, body conditioning, mental focus, hypnosis/meditation, pain tolerance, and a knowledge of human anatomy then I can buy that. Of course, this doesn't allow for anything super- or pretur- natural... just extreme or unexpected results couched in mystical terms.

If you see an Israeli commando exceed anything like a reasonable period of time in cold or hot conditions, or a Russian Spetsnaz operator withstand a series of blows... they could each say, "Through training, natural ability, and conditioning I achieve this", or they could say, "It's my Chi". Those examples of personal experiences of "feeling" versus object lessons like a death-touch or extinguishing a flame are Veeeeeeeeerrrrrryyyy different.

Oh, and for a meditative experience, Aikido is great... for self-defense try something like Krav Maga, Systema, or other (para) military infighting techniques along with a martial art for balance and extra technique.
 
  • #312
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well... there's no magic or spooky action at a distance, that's for sure. just look earlier in the thread for the video i linked. real martial artist challenges a chi master to a fight. chi master got his a** beat.
 
  • #313
I think this describes Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch.

.
to me that looks like a push punch,doesnt looks like it would hurt much,maybe take you off balance,this is a punch to me-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRs5budNvxg"

just looking at it you know it would hurt :approve:
 
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  • #314
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Relevant, and in my opinion, interesting essay about the martial arts.

http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~grussell/epistemicviciousness.pdf [Broken]
 
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  • #315
Doc Al
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Relevant, and in my opinion, interesting essay about the martial arts.

http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~grussell/epistemicviciousness.pdf [Broken]
An excellent essay about self-deception in the martial arts. Thanks for posting!
 
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  • #316
An excellent essay about self-deception in the martial arts. Thanks for posting!
:rofl:
 
  • #317
lisab
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Relevant, and in my opinion, interesting essay about the martial arts.

http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~grussell/epistemicviciousness.pdf [Broken]
...epistemic viciousness is the possession of vices that make one bad at acquiring true beliefs...
That's great, Galteeth. It should be required reading for all students of martial arts...and I bet it applies to a lot of other fields, as well.
 
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  • #318
Qi, Ki, or Chi to me is simply a mastery of motion in your own body. Nothing mystical about it, there are a lot of people who think its magic and like to claim hocus pocus, but the actual examples of it's use (Throwing a powerful strike, or deflecting a force) simply demonstrate your body exerting as much force as you are capable of making it do so.

So here's a question for you, do you think the average person when trying to exert as much force as they can through some means, is actually exerting as much force as their body is capable of producing? I don't think so.

Adrenaline is a perfect example of our body reacting in a way that enhances it's own physical prowess. Maybe Qi, Ki, or Chi practices actually just give the body a dose of epinephrine, maybe they somehow encourage your body to be more mechanically sound in its motion. Hard to say, but I do know there is SOMETHING that makes a man who got caught in a rockslide while rock climbing bench press a 500kg rock off of him.
 
  • #319
Qi, Ki, or Chi to me is simply a mastery of motion in your own body. Nothing mystical about it, there are a lot of people who think its magic and like to claim hocus pocus, but the actual examples of it's use (Throwing a powerful strike, or deflecting a force) simply demonstrate your body exerting as much force as you are capable of making it do so.

So here's a question for you, do you think the average person when trying to exert as much force as they can through some means, is actually exerting as much force as their body is capable of producing? I don't think so.

Adrenaline is a perfect example of our body reacting in a way that enhances it's own physical prowess. Maybe Qi, Ki, or Chi practices actually just give the body a dose of epinephrine, maybe they somehow encourage your body to be more mechanically sound in its motion. Hard to say, but I do know there is SOMETHING that makes a man who got caught in a rockslide while rock climbing bench press a 500kg rock off of him.
There is also the issue of coordinated muscular activity versus using only large muscle groups... the thing is, while you make good points, they are not the limits of the claims made by those who believe in "Qi".

Reiki is a good example of Ki as magic, in the minds of some.
 
  • #320
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Reiki is a good example of Ki as magic, in the minds of some.
According to studies published last year in International Journal of Clinical Practice and in Nov 2009 in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, "reiki is not an effective treatment for any condition." - http://www.livescience.com/health/091208-alternative-medicine.html" [Broken]

The term "reiki" is a compound of from two Japanese words, "rei," meaning "departed spirit, gohst, spiril, soul, miraculous, sacred, or divine," and "ki," which is the subject of this thread. Taken together, they loosely translite as "universal life energy." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiki#Derivation_of_name"

In 2008, a systematic review of randomised clinical trials assessing the evidence basis of Reiki concluding that efficacy had not been demonstrated for any condition. - "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18410352" [Broken]" (from the International Journal of Clinical Practice, indexed for MEDLINE, and cross-published in PubMed.gov).
 
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  • #321
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In Chinese philosophy they talk of a force called Chi. It's an electrical current that runs through your body,everything around you, and Earth.

I'm thinking maybe they weren't wrong. There is an electrical current that runs through you. It's the currents of your nervouce system. his may be what they were talking about.

Also there is a current that runs through your body. Just like theres 14 pounds of air per sqaure ince of your body there's lots ofelectrcity running through us. We're used to it so we don't feel anything. I'm wondering could this be CHi also.
Qi isn't a force, it is the ancient traditional Chinese medicine equivalent of the abstract modern notion of energy. Just as in western Hegellian dialectics where nature is said to comprised of two opposing energies, in TCM Qi is divided into two types yin-qi and yang-qi that interact with each other.

Yang-qi is associated with the masculine, fire, heat, dynamism and also physiologically with transparent bodily fluids, the air you breathe and the upper organs.

Yin-qi is associated with the feminine, coldness, Earth, matter, stillness, and also physiologically with bodily matter, waste products, the lower organs etc.

You can see that there is a close parallel between what we call potential energy and kinetic energy in physics with what are yin-qi and yang-qi in TCM. When matter is hot, its particles vibrate more - they have more KE/yang-qi, matter itself contains chemcial energy or potential energy/yin-qi. Since physical objects contain matter and that matter is vibrating particles - then it contains both KE and PE, or yang-qi and qin-qi.

The TCM concept of yin and yang being in healthy harmonic balance, is little more than the notion of homeostasis in modern western medicine, though obvious there will be some dispute as to what this actually means.

Simplistically, you might consider the body as skeletal frame - yin - and musculature - yang. The body needs both working together to function, too much of either one or the other and the body will be out of balance. TCM applies this idea to everything, things are either more yin or more yang, but, ultimately comprised of both energies.

The mysticism surrounding Qi is more eastern poetic license than anything else. Philosophically, TCM is another system of science not too far removed from what we are already familiar with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing
 
  • #322
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qi doesn't exist. I'm currently doing bjj and i'll be honest. It's all mental strength. When you have mental strength, you can do anything. At one point, i was at the top of my jiu jitsu game and i was taking down people who had 50lb+ advantage and all i did was believe in myself. Now I lost that "will" and can't do it again.
 
  • #323
alt
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qi doesn't exist. I'm currently doing bjj and i'll be honest. It's all mental strength. When you have mental strength, you can do anything. At one point, i was at the top of my jiu jitsu game and i was taking down people who had 50lb+ advantage and all i did was believe in myself. Now I lost that "will" and can't do it again.
Yes, I agree. But firstly, you need have the physical strength, and then the mental strength to employ it to do what you claimed - very believable.
 
  • #324
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China Physicists are undecided what kind of force is Chi. Can anyone refute the following?

http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf [Broken]
 
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  • #325
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How many of those people do you think are "physicists"?

Zz.
 

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