China, land of the rip off

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In summary, the US is concerned about cyber-attacks from China, and is taking measures to protect itself.
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  • #3
You stupid mongrorians, stop breaking down my wall!
 
  • #4
If the economic situation between the countries were reversed, we would do the same.

This is like a game of chess on steroids. People have been playing these games ever since some caveman stole the idea to make a fire.
 
  • #5
waht said:
If the economic situation between the countries were reversed, we would do the same.

I'm pretty sure the CIA does the same kind of stuff all the time, so economic situation really isn't a determining factor.
 
  • #6
The true source isn't even identified yet at all.
 
  • #7
JasonRox said:
The true source isn't even identified yet at all.

I agree, we should bomb Canada.
 
  • #8
Cyrus said:
I'm pretty sure the CIA does the same kind of stuff all the time, so economic situation really isn't a determining factor.

There isn't really a country that is more advanced technologically then this, so to the extent that CIA collects intelligence is limited to checking out how far other countries have progressed in the tech department.

Not so long ago, around where I live, a Chinese man was detained for stealing laptop containing trade secrets of some small commercial shop. He was caught by FBI at an airport with a one way ticket to China.
 
  • #9
Cyrus said:
I'm pretty sure the CIA does the same kind of stuff all the time, so economic situation really isn't a determining factor.

Everybody spies on everybody. In fact, Cyrus, could you move your head just a bit? You're blocking my view of your keyboard.
 
  • #10
Ivan Seeking said:
Everybody spies on everybody. In fact, Cyrus, could you move your head just a bit? You're blocking my view of your keyboard.

This was my wonder when people were complaining of the government allegedly spying on citizens. If we are ok with the CIA or NSA spying on others in other countries why do we have such a problem with our own privacy being threatened? It only seems inevitable and that our primary concern should be proper regulation.
 
  • #11
TheStatutoryApe said:
This was my wonder when people were complaining of the government allegedly spying on citizens. If we are ok with the CIA or NSA spying on others in other countries why do we have such a problem with our own privacy being threatened? It only seems inevitable and that our primary concern should be proper regulation.

Only US citizens are entitled to Constitutional protections. But we are entitled to them. I don't need to ask for permission.

Also, the issue is not whether the Government can spy on citizens who may be a threat to society. The issue is the regulation. That was the violation. The government must show cause, and also it must obtain a warrant. Bush decided to just do his own thing and ask for permission later.
 
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  • #12
If we were just paranoid enough, we wouldn't have to worry about reality.
 
  • #13
Cyrus said:
I'm pretty sure the CIA does the same kind of stuff all the time, so economic situation really isn't a determining factor.

There have been several law suits alleging that the US (and the UK on behalf of the US) used signals intelligence to spy on European aerospace companies, either to steal IP or to get info about contracts/tenders.
IIRC the suit against the UK won (the spying base was on UK territory) but there wasn't much the EU could do against the US.

There was an embarrassing case when the former UK Prime Minister Thatcher publicly thanked MI5 for their help breaking into the hotel of the EU agriculture minister and stealing the details of a deal before the meeting.

The French were(are) so notorious for stealing stuff, that at the Paris airshow US companies put notes (and chocolates) inside dummies of secret gear.
 
  • #14
waht said:
If the economic situation between the countries were reversed, we would do the same.

This is like a game of chess on steroids. People have been playing these games ever since some caveman stole the idea to make a fire.

yeah, but not putting all your data on a public network ain't rocket science. i mean, seriously, most of these places probably force their guys to work in windowless rooms for fear of spies looking in, yet give them all a big freaking port for internet access.


i'd also be suspecting the russians here.
 
  • #16
Astronuc said:
On the other hand, maybe that material was left there so China would steal, build the countermeasures such that the US would already have the counter-countermeasures, or the countermeasures are built for something that the JSF doesn't use. Very clever.

That doesn't look like a clever idea unless US is selling inefficient technologies such that China end up wasting its time making things that don't work. I don't see any other advantage than persuading them to waste their time/resources.

Or, maybe these are decoys. Clever indeed.
 
  • #17
We once sold some printers to Iraq that we knew [or anticipated] would be used at strategic defense locations. Some years later, when Saddam invaded Kuwait and we attacked - Gulf war I - we enabled the secret beacons that we had installed in the printers. These beacons were then used as target signals for our missile attacks.
 
  • #18
Ivan Seeking said:
We once sold some printers to Iraq that we knew [or anticipated] would be used at strategic defense locations. Some years later, when Saddam invaded Kuwait and we attacked - Gulf war I - we enabled the secret beacons that we had installed in the printers. These beacons were then used as target signals for our missile attacks.

lol, really?

fwiw, several networks out there could be compromised by chinese knockoffs of cisco routers.
 
  • #19
Proton Soup said:
lol, really?

This information was ultimately released by the Defense Department - bragging rights at work I think. I made a real point of remembering that one!

fwiw, several networks out there could be compromised by chinese knockoffs of cisco routers.

No doubt. There are some great gotcha stories from the cold-war era. I remember one where, IIRC, the Russians had a photocopier rigged to record every copy made at a defense or intell department. They had managed to plant a KGB agent as a photocopier repair tech. I once started a thread about this sort of thing.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=56663
 
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  • #20
One of my favorites was the microphone dropped down the vent pipe for a toilet. It turns out that even relatively low amplitude sounds in the building, like voices in an adjacent room, transmits very well by entering the bowl, passing through the water, and finally exiting up the vent.

Just another reason to close the lid, guys - spies! :biggrin:
 
  • #21
Ivan Seeking said:
One of my favorites was the microphone dropped down the vent pipe for a toilet. It turns out that even relatively low amplitude sounds in the building, like voices in an adjacent room, transmits very well by entering the bowl, passing through the water, and finally exiting up the vent.

Just another reason to close the lid, guys - spies! :biggrin:

ja, i think there was some really low-tech sabotage of an embassy in china once using sound tubes. nothing to detect with an electronic bug sweep.

and one i remember seeing on television that involved a trojan horse gift. it was some type of radio frequency resonator tube type device that had no power source or electronics. but when you lit it up with a directed RF beam, the signal bounced back was modulated by the sound waves in the room vibrating the device and changing its shape. i think that was at an embassy in russia.
 
  • #22
Ivan Seeking said:
We once sold some printers to Iraq that we knew [or anticipated] would be used at strategic defense locations. Some years later, when Saddam invaded Kuwait and we attacked - Gulf war I - we enabled the secret beacons that we had installed in the printers. These beacons were then used as target signals for our missile attacks.

I feel sorry for the poor bastard that bought a second hand printer from one of the defence location garage sales. You know, army surplus... "Honey, we're out of ink, there's a red light blinking and a beeping noise coming from inside..." scwheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Klablammo!
 
  • #23
Proton Soup said:
]and one i remember seeing on television that involved a trojan horse gift. it was some type of radio frequency resonator tube type device that had no power source or electronics. but when you lit it up with a directed RF beam, the signal bounced back was modulated by the sound waves in the room vibrating the device and changing its shape. i think that was at an embassy in russia.

Yes, I mentioned that as one of my favorites in the thread linked. I am pretty sure it was the head of NATO. Also, it went undetected for something like two years.
 
  • #24
There was one case that I think is described at the counterintelligence site linked in the thread linked earlier. Some Russian spy moved here, got married, had kids, and something like ten [I think twenty] years later, went back to Russia. His wife and kids knew nothing about it. Can you imagine being married for ten or twenty years only to discover that the entire relationship was a ruse for purposes of espionage!
 
  • #25
Ivan Seeking said:
There was one case that I think is described at the counterintelligence site linked in the thread linked earlier. Some Russian spy moved here, got married, had kids, and something like ten [I think twenty] years later, went back to Russia. His wife and kids knew nothing about it. Can you imagine being married for ten or twenty years only to discover that the entire relationship was a ruse for purposes of espionage!

That happened in Germany too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7953523.stm
 
  • #26
Ivan Seeking said:
We once sold some printers to Iraq that we knew [or anticipated] would be used at strategic defense locations. Some years later, when Saddam invaded Kuwait and we attacked - Gulf war I - we enabled the secret beacons that we had installed in the printers. These beacons were then used as target signals for our missile attacks.


Let's hope the Chinese aren't as devious.
 
  • #27
WhoWee said:
Let's hope the Chinese aren't as devious.

Nothing personal intended, but that would be a foolish thing to hope for; i.e. they will certainly take advantage of their position.
 
  • #28
Ivan Seeking said:
Nothing personal intended, but that would be a foolish thing to hope for; i.e. they will certainly take advantage of their position.

I meant (somewhat tongue in cheek) they clearly have a lot of electronics and other items placed in our country.
 

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