China more popular than U.S. overseas

[fourier jr]

China more popular than U.S. overseas
New poll finds Iraq war a key factor in tattered image of U.S.

The Associated Press
Updated: 4:49 p.m. ET June 23, 2005
WASHINGTON - The United States’ image is so tattered overseas two years after the Iraq invasion that China, which is ruled by a communist dictatorship, is viewed more favorably than the U.S. in many countries, an international poll found.

The poor image persists even though the Bush administration has been promoting freedom and democracy throughout the world in recent months and has sent hundreds of millions of dollars in relief aid to Indian Ocean nations hit by the devastating Dec. 26 tsunami.

“It’s amazing when you see the European public rating the United States so poorly, especially in comparison with China,” said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press.

Eleven of the 16 countries surveyed by the Pew Research Center — Britain, France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, Russia, Turkey, Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan and Indonesia — had a more favorable view of China than the United States.

India and Poland were more upbeat about the United States, while Canadians are as likely to see China favorably as they were the United States.

etc

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8324290/

 

[False Prophet]

Yeah I believe it. Logically thinking, USA probably isn't at the top of the world's favorite countries list.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Gee, that was really hard to see coming.

 

[kaos]

Well don't worry, when china starts being the "superpower", and starts bossing people around, people will start hating them more than you guys.

 

[Lisa!]

You know all of us like people who're doing their own business and don't interfere to other's job!(of course it's not always good to be so selfish!)

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Sure, with political intolerance, imprisonment, torture, state-mandated abortions, people enslaved to cheap labor, 1 billion people in poverty and forced to live under a system that they hate...what isn't to like about the Great Dragon? I can clearly see why they would be favored over the USA.

Excuse me. <starts strangling self>

 

[SOS2008]

Sure, with political intolerance, imprisonment, torture, state-mandated abortions, people enslaved to cheap labor, 1 billion people in poverty and forced to live under a system that they hate...what isn't to like about the Great Dragon? I can clearly see why they would be favored over the USA.

Excuse me. <starts strangling self>

The difference is China is not doing these things to other nations--and to clarify, families can have as many children as they want, but will lose government subsidies if they do--abortion is not mandated. Overpopulation is a serious problem, especially in China. Would you prefer to have masses of people starving? How humane!

In the meantime, Bush/Republicans would like to remove women's right to choose, not only in regard to abortion but even birth control. Bush/Republicans are contributing to cheap labor at home by blocking a raise in minimum wage, promoting illegal labor in the U.S., as well as cheap labor around the world with trade agreements such as NAFTA/CAFTA.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

The difference is China is not doing these things to other nations--and to clarify, families can have as many children as they want, but will lose government subsidies if they do--abortion is not mandated. Overpopulation is a serious problem, especially in China. Would you prefer to have masses of people starving? How humane!

In the meantime, Bush/Republicans would like to remove women's right to choose, not only in regard to abortion but even birth control. Bush/Republicans are contributing to cheap labor at home by blocking a raise in minimum wage, promoting illegal labor in the U.S., as well as cheap labor around the world with trade agreements such as NAFTA/CAFTA.

i don't necessarily disagree with you on the current Republican agenda, but you must admit that the US at least tries to represent decency, charity, and order.

i guess on the surface your defense of china sounds good, but i just can't get that picture out of my head where the protestors are run over by tanks in Tianamen square...these are the same people that probably cook chinese food for you, and would die to have the freedoms that we have. If china is not a symbol of oppression, I don't know what is...you can't even begin to compare them with the US.

Since the chinese don't publish their prison statistics - it's "classified" - we can only assume that it is very very high. Interviews with political dissidents from china speak about masses of people exterminated. Does it matter whether this is really foreign or domestic?

On the one hand, you have one country (the US) that in a state of war abroad. On the other, you have a large oppressive government that commits atrocities against it's own people (China). Which is worse, in your eyes?

 

[Smurf]

i don't necessarily disagree with you on the current Republican agenda, but you must admit that the US at least tries to represent decency, charity, and order.

I think the US is really trying to represent any of those things. Just because it's not as bad doesn't make it good.

If china is not a symbol of oppression, I don't know what is...you can't even begin to compare them with the US.

This seems to me to be quite a large problem in the US. If you ask someone what they thing the most oppressive regime in the world are they're more likely to name one of the US's political rivals which, while a lot of them are bad, arn't anywhere near the worst or most oppressive regimes out there. For example, Burma is worse than Iraq or China ever have been. A lot of people have never even heard of this place, because it's not challenging the US for anything, so it doesn't get in the news as being a 'bad guy'.

Since the chinese don't publish their prison statistics - it's "classified" - we can only assume that it is very very high.

Oh... but of course! what other choice do we have

Interviews with political dissidents from china speak about masses of people exterminated. Does it matter whether this is really foreign or domestic?

Dissidents from anywhere will always exagerate the case and talk about worst case scenarios. How many times have you heard similar things from the USA? Some of it's true of course, just like with the US, but don't take it all for granted.

On the one hand, you have one country (the US) that in a state of war abroad. On the other, you have a large oppressive government that commits atrocities against it's own people (China). Which is worse, in your eyes?

I think the USA is worse right now, overall I just think they're contributing more to poor human rights and poverty, starvation, ect than China is.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Oh... but of course! what other choice do we have

so what is the alternative? that they are keeping the prison stats secret because they are so low?? yeah, right.

I think the USA is worse right now, overall I just think they're contributing more to poor human rights and poverty, starvation, ect than China is.

just because they are isolationist does not make them decent. how much money did china give for the tsunami disaster?

 

[fourier jr]

so what is the alternative? that they are keeping the prison stats secret because they are so low?? yeah, right.

their unemployment rate is so low because there are so many people in the prison system. the prison system takes that many able-bodied males out of the labour market.

 

[kaos]

their unemployment rate is so low because there are so many people in the prison system. the prison system takes that many able-bodied males out of the labour market.

Now that's is just ridiculous.

 

[Loren Booda]

Germany is still, and rightly, marked as responsible for the Holocaust. China, however, has avoided being effectively confronted about the 30,000,000 more recently starved to death under Mao. How do people justify this annihilation, or the undertakings by the vast majority of countries, against the actions of a bumbling, petty U. S. president?

Please tell us how your country is less culpable than the United States.

 

[cronxeh]

Well don't worry, when china starts being the "superpower", and starts bossing people around, people will start hating them more than you guys.

not before they overflow the population stepping on each other's heads and crushing all the upcoming generations

the only threat to date i can think of is the staggering amount of engineers that China produces.. only hope for US is that they are learning english and immigrating to US

 

[fourier jr]

Now that's is just ridiculous.

as with so many other things, truth is stranger than fiction:

Comparative research contrasts the corporatist welfare states of Europe with the unregulated U.S. labor market to explain low rates of U.S. unemployment in the 1980s and 1990s. In contrast, this article argues that the U.S. state made a large and coercive intervention into the labor market through the expansion of the penal system. The impact of incarceration on unemployment has two conflicting dynamics. In the short run, U.S. incarceration lowers conventional unemployment measures by removing able-bodied, working-age men from labor force counts. In the long run, social survey data show that incarceration raises unemployment by reducing the job prospects of ex-convicts. Strong U.S. employment performance in the 1980s and 1990s has thus depended in part on a high and increasing incarceration rate.
...
This article studies the penal system as a labor market institution and provides evidence for its dynamic effects. Our central argument is that U.S. incarceration lowers conventional measures of unemployment in the short run by concealing joblessness among able-bodied, working-age men, but it raises unemployment in the long run by damaging the job prospects of ex-convicts after release. Incarceration, unlike social welfare policy, deepens inequality because its effects are increasingly detrimental for young black and unskilled men, whose incarceration rates are highest and whose market power is weak. This argument suggests that incarceration has lowered the U.S. unemployment rate, but it also implies that sustained low unemployment in the future will depend on continuing expansion of the penal system.

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/politics/seminars/western.pdf

edit: waitasec i thought the earlier discussion was about the US

 

[kaos]

fourier, u mean that's official policy by the government?And let me guess, those incacerated are mostly blacks and latinos?

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

yeah well, at least you can get those kinds of statistics on the US. If one day we suddenly "classified" prison statistics like china does, you can bet your bottom dollar that the UN will start labelling us an oppressor state.

 

[Art]

yeah well, at least you can get those kinds of statistics on the US. If one day we suddenly "classified" prison statistics like china does, you can bet your bottom dollar that the UN will start labelling us an oppressor state.

Oh, they're not so hard to find if you actually look ;

http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/apcca/2000/

Guess you'll need to find something else to denigrate the Chinese about now. I suggest though before posting you check first before asserting unfounded opinion as facts. As per discussion on previous thread. :grumpy:

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

information that they "voluntarily" submit is usually crap (i say voluntarily because they have had to cave in the last few years and address this concern), and getting an objective estimate is difficult to do. reputable sources have a very hard time trying to estimate the true crime statistics of china. it is also frequently incomplete; notice, for example, the unconvicted remandee rate is not listed for china.

i strongly suspect that there is no such thing as "unconvicted", it just means that you weren't run over with a tank. what percentage are "political prisoners" versus legitimate crimes?

 

[Art]

information that they "voluntarily" submit is usually crap (i say voluntarily because they have had to cave in the last few years and address this concern), and getting an objective estimate is difficult to do. reputable sources have a very hard time trying to estimate the true crime statistics of china. it is also frequently incomplete; notice, for example, the unconvicted remandee rate is not listed for china.

i strongly suspect that there is no such thing as "unconvicted", it just means that you weren't run over with a tank. what percentage are "political prisoners" versus legitimate crimes?

Please read this piece again carefully

I suggest though before posting you check first, before asserting unfounded opinion as facts. As per discussion on previous thread.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Please read this piece again carefully

what are you saying? Why don't you read my piece again? Where's the unconvicted remandee stats?

i find it hard to believe that china has the same crime per capita as australia.

 

[Art]

what are you saying? Why don't you read my piece again? Where's the unconvicted remandee stats?

i find it hard to believe that china has the same crime per capita as australia.

To sum up this discussion todate. You first asserted that China 'classified' the numbers in their prisons and were therefore 'beyond the pale'. Now that I have shown your original assertion to be erroneous you are now contending that okay they may publish figures but you don't believe them :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: At this point further discussion with you on this topic seems pointless unless you provide sources and or references to substantiate your claims.

Ref previous request;

I suggest though before posting you check first, before asserting unfounded opinion as facts. As per discussion on previous thread.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

well Art, you would make a fine attorney. It is true that in recent years China has at least humored us with some prison statistics.

But it has been well-documented how terrible their prison system truly is. And while we at least have the number of prisoners now, they will not say what crimes they're in for - but, escapees have told international bodies that the majority are for "political" crimes against the state. Here's one such article:

http://www.asyl.net/Magazin/Docs/Docs08/l5660chi.htm

Having traveled to Latin America, I have seen how local police stations in central american countries will maintain torture chambers in the basement of the police station. You wake up one morning, and your neighbors have disappeared for talking to reporters. Yet on paper, the whole country's prison system looks creamy. Everything that I have seen about China to date supports this same feeling. I also have personal friends who have escaped China with similar stories. So, yes, I admit that it is possible that I have an axe to grind.

And you know what: this will all be brushed aside. Because people such as yourself, who have who-knows-what agenda, will continue to refuse it. Germany still bears all the blame for genocide, and yet Stalin killed more than 20 million of his own people to maintain the war...who really came out of that one smelling worse?

 

[Smurf]

and yet Stalin killed more than 20 million of his own people to maintain the war...who really came out of that one smelling worse?

Ok. Dude. Seriously. 'Maintain the war'? Hitler attacked him, Stalin was the good guy this time. Call him a mass murderer, call him an ass and oppressive dictator, but don't tell me he's a war monger. Those 20 million casualties were killed by the Germans. Don't even try to tell me that Stalin killed more of his own men than the Germans did. Just don't OK? Don't.

Edit: And what the hell does stalin have to do with this anyway? Are you trying to turn this into another one of your Anti-Communist binges?

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Ok. Dude. Seriously. 'Maintain the war'? Hitler attacked him, Stalin was the good guy this time. Call him a mass murderer, call him an ass and oppressive dictator, but don't tell me he's a war monger. Those 20 million casualties were killed by the Germans. Don't even try to tell me that Stalin killed more of his own men than the Germans did. Just don't OK? Don't.

Edit: And what the hell does stalin have to do with this anyway?

um, no. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people (not soldiers), civilians, to crush any resistance to WWII and also to maintain his own power. Oh yes, there was a great deal of resistance by the Russian population against fighting the Germans, believe it or not. The Russians lost a measley 8 million in the actual war.

If you thought there was mass protest against Vietnam, this is nothing compared to what happened in Russia. Millions of Russians died in Stalingrad alone, they were willing to send as many people to their death as necessary to win that key battle. The people were naturally upset by this, and needed "coaxing".

check the sources yourself. stalin is directly responsible for 12 - 20 million deaths (depending upon who you ask) of his own people. this has nothing to do with the germans.

 

[Art]

um, no. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people (not soldiers), civilians, to crush any resistance to WWII and also to maintain his own power. Oh yes, there was a great deal of resistance by the Russian population against fighting the Germans, believe it or not. The Russians lost a measley 8 million in the actual war.

If you thought there was mass protest against Vietnam, this is nothing compared to what happened in Russia. Millions of Russians died in Stalingrad alone, they were willing to send as many people to their death as necessary to win that key battle. The people were naturally upset by this, and needed "coaxing".

check the sources yourself. stalin is directly responsible for 12 - 20 million deaths (depending upon who you ask) of his own people. this has nothing to do with the germans.

I will gladly check the sources myself but you appear to have forgotten to post any?

 

[Smurf]

um, no. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people (not soldiers), civilians, to crush any resistance to WWII and also to maintain his own power. Oh yes, there was a great deal of resistance by the Russian population against fighting the Germans, believe it or not. The Russians lost a measley 8 million in the actual war.

The Russians lost 20 million (civilian and military) as casualties during the war.
http://ww2bodycount.netfirms.com/
http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko12530/ww2.htm

If you thought there was mass protest against Vietnam, this is nothing compared to what happened in Russia. Millions of Russians died in Stalingrad alone, they were willing to send as many people to their death as necessary to win that key battle. The people were naturally upset by this, and needed "coaxing".

That's interesting, I've never heard of that, could you please direct me towards some historical information on the subject? Just a website or two would do.

check the sources yourself. stalin is directly responsible for 12 - 20 million deaths (depnding upon who you ask) of his own people. this has nothing to do with the germans.

What sources? According to wikipedia you're grossly over-exagerating the numbers. 8-20 is the usual claim, and I bet most of the people saying 20 are just like you, who have little factual basis.

In fact according to the 1926-37 consensus it was probably more like 5-10 million, and that's including the famine at the time. But knowing you, that was just one of stalin's plots to kill people right?

I trust you know how to use wikipedia? Oh alright then, but just because it's you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#Death_toll

 

[Smurf]

Now, if we're done arguing about Stalin. I assume you still have some evidence to present concerning China's prison statements?

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Now, if we're done arguing about Stalin. I assume you still have some evidence to present concerning China's prison statements?

no, i think I'm done..i appreciate the request though.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

What sources? According to wikipedia you're grossly over-exagerating the numbers. 8-20 is the usual claim, and I bet most of the people saying 20 are just like you, who have little factual basis.

In fact according to the 1926-37 consensus it was probably more like 5-10 million, and that's including the famine at the time. But knowing you, that was just one of stalin's plots to kill people right?

oh well, 8 million, that's much better. he was a swell guy.

I trust you know how to use wikipedia? Oh alright then, but just because it's you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#Death_toll

you don't need to insult me, i did not insult you. and infact i did use wikipedia, as i tend to quote that particular source quite frequenty in this forum. see my response on "preemptive war", for example.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

I will gladly check the sources myself but you appear to have forgotten to post any?

one such book is "Marching Orders" by Bruce Lee, a fantastic book that I read this past winter.

 

[Art]

one such book is "Marching Orders" by Bruce Lee, a fantastic book that I read this past winter.

Cryptography??

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Cryptography??

Not exactly Art. The book is a review of the transcripts that were intercepted by the Allies during the war, most importantly the diplomatic messages.

The book covers over a million pages of such transcripts, which include high-level strategy (political, military and economic) and international negotations. Cryptography provided the information, but the book itself deals with almost no cryptography, but rather a "fly-on-the-wall" view of the decisions that were being made by both Allied and Axis leaders.

 

[fourier jr]

yeah well, at least you can get those kinds of statistics on the US. If one day we suddenly "classified" prison statistics like china does, you can bet your bottom dollar that the UN will start labelling us an oppressor state.

maybe that would be the result of prison privatization, where private prisons cut back on the amount of guards, etc rather than simply hiding prison stats. wackenhut is notorious for this. example: new mexico rancher ralph garcia's business was screwed up by drought so he was looking for work. he got a $7.95/hr job as a prison guard at a medium-security private prison (with multiple-murderers, members of the mexican mafia & homicidal neo-nazi cult) & hadn't even finished his training course when he was sent into a room alone with 60 unlocked prisoners. the corporation's argument for that was basically "we'd rather lose one guard than two"

 

[Mercator]

Living in China

The two cents of a guy living in China; though I am not blind for the shortcomings here, I can understand China' popularity as compared to the US. A side note on the criminality: any foreigner living in a Chinese city will confirm that life is safer here than in most other countries, sepcially compared to US cities , but also compared to European cities. My long experience with China and Chinese tells me that that has something to do with the Chinese character and their strong social fabric. (And no, you don't see much more police on the streets here) Nobody can guarantee absolute correctness of their figures, but it's hard to imagine they come anywhere near the 2 million prison population in the US. (This figure alone makes one shiver)
The issue is that China is IMPROVING, from a dictatorial communist state into a better society, while the US is sliding down from being the champion of liberty into a paranoic society, spending more on military than the rest of the world combined. And China does not interfere abroad to protect economic interests like the US does.
What we see today is that Europe, in it's slow process of forming a "network Europe" is becoming the example for a large part of the world, including China. The European way of diplomacy and engaging countries with the promise of becoming part of the network with the largest economic power in the world, the EU and the stability of the rule of law attracts many. The success of the enlargement of the EU, tranforming former poor countries into new dynamic economies makes many think. One of the best examples was Turkey refusing to assist to the American invasion in Iraq, only because they want to safeguard their place in the EU. IN China, as well as many Islamic nations, the European model is now seen as a humane alternative to the American brute force. China is much closer to Europe now than any American can imagine, and it works the other way around too, China is popular because it is changing it's old values to become part of a world that believes in mutual economic assistance and the rule of law.
The recent summit on Iraq in Brussels, was another example of the weakness of power and the power of the "percieved wekaness " of the EU. After more than two years catastrofical occupation, the US is now turning to the EU and the UN in search for a solution. From the aggressive "old Europe-and freedom fries" style of blind American rethoric, Condi Rice was now reduced to a "nice girl in class" image, glad that she could deliver her short speech at the end to confirm what others had said.
The problem with many Americans is that they have no clue that they are so unpopular, let alone that they know why. They even still have this false feeling of superiority while in the last decade it was clearly Europe that had not only the moral superiority, but despite the enormous military power, often overall superiority. And all this in a way that does not offend other nations. The big mistake they make is to look at the EU as a weak, socialist, debate culture. They fail to see that under their noses this "weak" power has succeeded in forming the biggest economic market in the world, with much better social and general living circumstances than in the US. IN a few decades the US declined from double the size of the European economies combined, to a slightly smaller economy than the new EU. The US can only maintain a slightly higher productivity by working 25 % more hours, or with other word, our productivity is almost 25 % higher per hour basis, and in some cases like France (eat your heart out!) Belgium , Holland even much higher. Europe has 60.000 to 80.000 soldiers, around the world, all of them on peace keeping missons. The US is known and feared for it's aggressive interventions, which most of the time end in just more problems. And all this comes at a terrible cost, with deficits which will not be possible to be sustained much longer.
The paranoia and agressivity of the American society nowadays is in stark contrast with the image they would like to present, as the champion of freedom and democracy. Not only internally the US is changing into a fascistoid society, but Americans are not afraid to flaunt their message around the world. Just recently I saw the last season of "24". This is pure propaganda with a fascist smell, making the public ready to accept that it is OK to torture people, and that the US is under constant threat from the most nasty of the terrorist brands : Islamic extremists. I think Hollywood is helping with the self - fulfilling prophecy with this trash and it sure makes the US even less popular than it is.
But of course not many people want to hear the truth in the US, so this post will be branded as anti-US propaganda and I can only be happy that there is no CTU office nearby where a Jack Bauer can shoot in my leg because he wants me to confess I speak French.