Chlorophyll all understood?

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Is Chlorophyll something that is already thoroughly understood? But I still read some debates whether quantum processes were involved. This means we have not thoroughly understood Chlorophyll yet?
 
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Is Chlorophyll something that is already thoroughly understood? But I still read some debates whether quantum processes were involved. This means we have not thoroughly understood Chlorophyll yet?
Outside my area of knowledge but "I read some debates ... " is not a helpful citation. Do you recall the context?
 

BillTre

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Quantum Mechanics is well outside my expertise, but it seems obvious that when you have photos interacting with chemical quantum effects will abound. The chemistry of the process is determined by the quantum properties of their component atoms and their interactions with photons will also be determined by their quantum properties.
Perhaps there are some particular quantum effects you are pondering.

I have heard of some "weird effects" like electrons bouncing around a local group of chlorophyll molecules, perhaps in a tunneling like manner.
However, I don't know much about that either, but I believe its standard in biochem texts.

Like @phinds said, your question could be more clear about your interest.
 

Ygggdrasil

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Here's a recent review article about research into some open questions about photosynthesis:
The rapid response of photosynthetic organisms to fluctuations in ambient light intensity is incompletely understood at both the molecular and membrane levels. In this review, we describe research from our group over a 10-year period aimed at identifying the photophysical mechanisms used by plants, algae and mosses to control the efficiency of light harvesting by photosystem II on the seconds-to-minutes time scale. To complement the spectroscopic data, we describe three models capable of describing the measured response at a quantitative level. The review attempts to provide an integrated view that has emerged from our work, and briefly looks forward to future experimental and modelling efforts that will refine and expand our understanding of a process that significantly influences crop yields.
 
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Quantum Mechanics is well outside my expertise, but it seems obvious that when you have photos interacting with chemical quantum effects will abound. The chemistry of the process is determined by the quantum properties of their component atoms and their interactions with photons will also be determined by their quantum properties.
Perhaps there are some particular quantum effects you are pondering.

I have heard of some "weird effects" like electrons bouncing around a local group of chlorophyll molecules, perhaps in a tunneling like manner.
However, I don't know much about that either, but I believe its standard in biochem texts.

Like @phinds said, your question could be more clear about your interest.
I'd like to know what happens to plants when it was left at basement and without any direct sunlights. Would artificial lights still trigger photosynthesis producing green leaves? Or would it be just pale leaves?

What kinds of photons chlorophyll needs?
 
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I'd like to know what happens to plants when it was left at basement and without any direct sunlights. Would artificial lights still trigger photosynthesis producing green leaves? Or would it be just pale leaves?

What kinds of photons chlorophyll needs?
You do realize that your original question and this question have nothing to do with each other? It just seems weird to totally change the subject in your second post.

Assuming this current question is actually the question you want answered, that's fine, I'm just saying that a different subject line and asking this question up front would have moved things toward an answer for you faster, with out the irrelevant stuff that's gone on up to now. You might want to use the "report" button to ask a moderator to change the subject line for you.
 

Ygggdrasil

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I'd like to know what happens to plants when it was left at basement and without any direct sunlights. Would artificial lights still trigger photosynthesis producing green leaves? Or would it be just pale leaves?

What kinds of photons chlorophyll needs?
Chlorophyll appears green because it absorbs light in the red and blue regions of the spectrum and reflects green light. Artificial lighting should be able to provide the proper wavelengths of light for plant growth, though this depends on the particular spectrum of light provided by the bulb. Lighting with high emission in the red and blue regions of the spectrum would be ideal.

The green color of chlorophyll also requires proper nutrition of the plant, for example, magnesium is an important component of the pigments in chlorophyll.
 
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You do realize that your original question and this question have nothing to do with each other? It just seems weird to totally change the subject in your second post.

Assuming this current question is actually the question you want answered, that's fine, I'm just saying that a different subject line and asking this question up front would have moved things toward an answer for you faster, with out the irrelevant stuff that's gone on up to now. You might want to use the "report" button to ask a moderator to change the subject line for you.
It's connected because I'd like to know if Chlorophyll is already thoroughly understood. If it is not. Then it is possible Chlorophyll can still work even if the light is internal like from basements or photons that don't come from the sun?
 
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It's connected because I'd like to know if Chlorophyll is already thoroughly understood. If it is not. Then it is possible Chlorophyll can still work even if the light is internal like from basements or photons that don't come from the sun?
Fair enough, but if your fundamental question is whether or not it works, the answer is a well-known empirical fact (it does) and therefore needs no consideration of whether or not it is understood. It works. Period.

My point is, you should focus on what you really want to know and not bring in extraneous facts.
 
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Whether or not chlorophyll is well understood, how to grow plants indoors in the absence of sunlight is very well understood due to the cannabis industry.
Ok. How about in total darkness? Some have tried planting in basements in total darkness. The results differed. Some still have green plants, some just pale yellow ones. I want to try it to see what would be the result. Perhaps there were pictures of plants that were exposed to zero light? How do they look like?

In the absence of light. There shouldn't even be chlorophyll but just yellow pigments? But what were the cause of the yellow pigments?
 

BillTre

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Etiolation is what this process is called.
I think it varies among species as to how strong it is expressed.
 
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Etiolation is what this process is called.
I think it varies among species as to how strong it is expressed.
So photons were cause of the growth of chlorophyll itself and then the photons using the chlorophyll for photosynthesis? But how do photons create the first chlorophyll in the plants in the first place?
 

BillTre

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The cells do that stuff (via their cellular processes), triggered by the present or absence of appropriate photons.
Chloroplasts are organelles that are inherited from the plant's parents.
The chlorophyll is made in them by non-remarkable cellular processes.
 
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The cells do that stuff (via their cellular processes), triggered by the present or absence of appropriate photons.
Chloroplasts are organelles that are inherited from the plant's parents.
The chlorophyll is made in them by non-remarkable cellular processes.
In complete darkness, it's not possible at all for any chlorophyll to exist? How many photons before chlorophyll can form? I need this specific information..thank you.
 

BillTre

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In complete darkness, it's not possible at all for any chlorophyll to exist?
It is possible for chlorophyll to exist in complete darkness.
Take a green plant, put it in the dark.
Look at it after a few minutes. It will still be green.

What is your source for this "weird knowledge" you are spouting?
 
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It is possible for chlorophyll to exist in complete darkness.
Take a green plant, put it in the dark.
Look at it after a few minutes. It will still be green.

What is your source for this "weird knowledge" you are spouting?
I want to do some biology experiment: Plant oat seeds in total darkness, water it daily..so i should expect yellowish plants without any chlorophyll? But how many photons approx before chlorophyll can form?
 

BillTre

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You seem to be asking for an exact number of photons.
You'll have to do the test yourself.
If you want to do an experiment, you should just do it.

This is not something you can expect someone to just tell you.
There are lots of unknown variables.
The resulting number of photons can vary by huge amounts.
You could google to see what is known about light levels and skotomorphogenesis (etiolation of sprouting seeds) in the etiolation link above.
Whatever it is, you should then see if anything is known about the species you are talking about (oat).

It would be no surprise to me if there were differences in this process between different species.
Some species may have been under selection for some reason to produce chlorophyll for different periods of time, even in the dark (perhaps to take advantage of an upcoming short season with high light levels or to have chlorophyll available to photosynthesize when the plant pops out of what ever it was under).

You could set up some quick and easy experiments, grow the seeds in the same conditions except the light levels.
A light meter will be handy. A camera might serve as one.
Controlling the light levels (while not changing the spectrum of wavelengths) will be your big problem to overcome. You might use length of time of light exposure as a way to present fewer photons, but the levels when on will be the same.

If you research the subject, you may find a particular wavelength has been associated with this process and possibly the photoreceptor it is interacting with has been identified. You then might want to work with particular wavelengths. The light however, could quite possibly be interacting with some photoreceptor with is triggering some physiological process which results in cells making chlorophyll.

You might find that in the research literature on the control of chlorophyll transcription/translation. (Google Scholar).

On the other hand, for growing plants, what you really want are appropriate light levels at different times.
People who grow plants might know this. Certainly agriculture professionals and academics. Especially with oats a commercial product, extension services in appropriate areas of the country (US) could well have this kind of information. They might have some literature on this.
 

jim mcnamara

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I think there is an ESL issue:
Lucas - this is what you need to understand in case you missed it:

1. All green plants in the dark eventually die. Chlorophyll makes food for the plant from light. Plants can survive some part of a very long period of darkness before they die. They store food as they grow in normal light. This is how they live in the dark.

2. oat seeds planted in the dark and left in the dark will germinate, make short sprouts, and then die.
Why? Because they cannot make food.

3. plants have different needs for light. Pine trees like full sun. Azalea bushes like partial shade. Philodendron likes full shade - they can grow inside under house lighting, pine trees will not like this and will turn yellow and die.

4. Oats plants are grown for food. They are planted in wide open fields with no shade. They like it. So why would they like dark? Oats planted in the dark use up the food already stored in the seed to grow. When the food is gone the baby plants die.

5. Chlorophyll is made in tiny cells inside the plant cells. A cell within a cell. The tiny cell is called a chloroplast. Chloroplasts have their very own DNA, their own genetic information. The recipe to make chlorophyll is in those genes inside the chloroplast. The genes to make chlorophyll are turned on ONLY in light. So. For your baby oat plant to turn green, it has to be in sunlight. That is why your oat plants in the dark will not turn green and why they will die.
 

Baluncore

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Preliminary reading;

General discussion of varieties and colour;

The colour when grown in darkness is here;

The passing of electrons along the molecule is close to a “quantum” feature;
By the way. Reading them. Why is there no "quantum" feature in Mitochondria but only in Chlorophyll or Photosynthesis? Both have similarities.
 

Baluncore

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Why is there no "quantum" feature in Mitochondria but only in Chlorophyll or Photosynthesis?
The mitochondria, like chloroplasts, are complex "industrial" mechanisms made from many large molecules. They function by moving small molecules.

Chlorophyll is a molecule that has different energy states depending on the position of electrons. They function by moving electrons and photons. Photon colour and the possible electron energy states in the molecule are quantum effects.
 
335
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I think there is an ESL issue:
Lucas - this is what you need to understand in case you missed it:

1. All green plants in the dark eventually die. Chlorophyll makes food for the plant from light. Plants can survive some part of a very long period of darkness before they die. They store food as they grow in normal light. This is how they live in the dark.

2. oat seeds planted in the dark and left in the dark will germinate, make short sprouts, and then die.
Why? Because they cannot make food.

3. plants have different needs for light. Pine trees like full sun. Azalea bushes like partial shade. Philodendron likes full shade - they can grow inside under house lighting, pine trees will not like this and will turn yellow and die.

4. Oats plants are grown for food. They are planted in wide open fields with no shade. They like it. So why would they like dark? Oats planted in the dark use up the food already stored in the seed to grow. When the food is gone the baby plants die.

5. Chlorophyll is made in tiny cells inside the plant cells. A cell within a cell. The tiny cell is called a chloroplast. Chloroplasts have their very own DNA, their own genetic information. The recipe to make chlorophyll is in those genes inside the chloroplast. The genes to make chlorophyll are turned on ONLY in light. So. For your baby oat plant to turn green, it has to be in sunlight. That is why your oat plants in the dark will not turn green and why they will die.
For plants that grow underneath the oceans without any source of lights. How does the photosynthesis work? Or is it hydrosynthesis using the energy of water instead?

Why don't living things have chlorophyll too so they can eat directly photons and water only?
 
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Why don't living things have chlorophyll too so they can eat directly photons and water only?
1) do you not think plants are "living things" ?
2) if you are talking about MOVING living things like mammals then the answer is simply that chlorophyll is WAY too slow to support active life.
 
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For plants that grow underneath the oceans without any source of lights. How does the photosynthesis work? Or is it hydrosynthesis using the energy of water instead?
There ARE no plants in the deep ocean, just animal life forms, so your question is based on a false premise. You could have found this out with a simple Internet search.
 

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