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Church and Judge . Where's the different?

  1. Jun 17, 2010 #1

    VietDao29

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    "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    I'm not sure where to post this thread. It's not really a homework assignment, and it doesn't seem to belong to the Homework section either. While I am trying to improve my phonetics skills, I come across this pair of words church, and judge. Although the dictionary says that their pronunciation(s) are different, I cannot make out any different myself.

    Err.. May I ask, how would you guys pronounce the 2 words above? Where's the position of the tongue, how can I do to make the 2 words sound different? Is there any advice?

    Thanks guys a lot in advance, :)
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 17, 2010 #2
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Do you have windows XP?
     
  4. Jun 17, 2010 #3
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    When saying the "dg" sound in "Judge" your tounge's tip should be pressed against the roof of your mouth. When saying the "rch" sound in "church", the sides of your tounge should be touching your teeth, but the tip shouldn't be pressed against the roof of your mouth.


    ... I don't think that helped, did it?
     
  5. Jun 17, 2010 #4
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Church....CH(like the "ch" in chicken)ER(like how you wrote Err)CH(like the "ch"in chicken)
    Judge.....J(like the "j" in juice)UH(like the "u" in fun)J(like the "dge" in edge)

    cherch and juhj

    Hope it helps!
     
  6. Jun 17, 2010 #5
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    I want to know what a "tounge" is. :wink:

    It's difficult to describe how to place one's mouth to pronounce words, isn't it?

    VietDao29, have you tried looking at www.dictionary.com? They have sound on their site so when you search the definition of a word there's an icon of a little speaker to click on right next to the word. When you click on it, a voice says the word out loud. You can get an idea of how the word should sound from there.
     
  7. Jun 17, 2010 #6
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Just type it in on that text to speak program on the windows xp control panel.
     
  8. Jun 17, 2010 #7

    BobG

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    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Here's the kicker. In a continous spectrum of sound, the vowel sound for example, there's an infinite number of sounds along that spectrum. Growing up, one learns to identify several small segments of sound as language and the rest are the extraneous sounds that one might make because of a slight stutter, a space filling "uh", or whatever. The filtering occurs without a person even thinking about it. You have to learn how to even hear the letters before you can learn to say them.

    Each language identifies its own little segments as a language sound and, usually, the segments are divided up similiarly enough that a people speaking different languages can at least identify not only which sounds are language, but even identify a Spanish "ah", English "ah", etc. Reproducing the other language's sound is a different story, which is why it's so hard to lose an accent if you try to learn a foreign language later on in life. You learned the sounds of language when you were so young that the process is almost subconcious and takes some work to overcome.

    There's always exceptions where different languages might not even have the same number of sound segments. Some of those sound segments from a different language just have to share the same slot in your brain's library of sound segments. There is nowhere to put a "ch" and "dg" if you've only got a "zh" drawer in your cabinet.

    Actually, a person winds up just adding new drawers as legitimate language sounds if they really want to have any hope of losing their accent when speaking the new language. Continuously trying to correlate foreign language sounds to your own language sounds condemns yourself to never losing your accent when speaking the new language. So the person needs a "ch" drawer, a "dg" drawer, and his original "zh" drawer and it's not that hard to learn when each drawer is appropriate.

    Why do you think Russian words have such horrible spellings when written in the English alphabet instead of cyrillic? The sounds from language just don't transport perfectly into the other.

    All I can say is that it will take some time to learn how to hear the difference between the two sounds and you have to watch the person say it to really learn it (could be on TV or video, but in person usually works best).
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010
  9. Jun 17, 2010 #8
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Bah, it's one of those typos of mine that just won't go away.
     
  10. Jun 17, 2010 #9

    Chi Meson

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    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    The vowell sound in the middle of the words is not as important as the "ch" and "j" sounds which begin and end each word.

    The difference between the "ch" and the "j" sound, is that "ch" is unvoiced, and "j" is voiced.

    "Unvoiced" means that the sound is made just by the air hissing through your teeth.

    "Voiced" means that your vocal cords are "humming" at the time.

    Begin with the "sh" sound. With your teeth closed, and your tongue near the roof of the mouth, breathe out to make the sound of a waterfall. Air only, no vocal cords. The "ch" sound is made with a hard "t" that is stuck to the start of the "sh."

    If you "voiced" while doing this, you get the "j" sound. The "d" is a voiced "t," and the "zh" is a voiced "sh." Just as "ch" is a "t-sh," so the "j" is a "d-zh." (This is why the "d" in "judge" disappears; actually, the d is what turns the g into a "j" sound).

    The vowell sound in the middle of both words would be almost the same in England, but very different in America, and also different in Scotland, but not the same difference as in America. So, fix the sh/j distinction, and most English speakers would understand you.
     
  11. Jun 17, 2010 #10

    BobG

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    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Wow, now that is a very good explanation.
     
  12. Jun 17, 2010 #11

    Chi Meson

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    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    What, the whole thing? or the "vowell sound" phrase. Well, it's hard to explain sometimes.

    The "ur" sound in Church (as pronounced in America) is a "retroflex schwa," or an "r-colored schwa," or "schwa[r]" depending on who's text you read. One thing that just about all linguists agree on is that it is a vowell. It has it's own phonetic symbol, called a "rhotic schwa": ɚ
    Here's the best paper I could find on short order
    http://members.tripod.com/Caroline_Bowen/kb/shwa%20%5B%20r%20%5D%20by%20Ken%20Bleile.pdf [Broken]

    Note: Y'know, I only now noticed that you said it "was" a good explanation. At first I thought you said it "was not." And I was perplexed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  13. Jun 17, 2010 #12
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    If you don't have Windows XP, as Cyrus suggested, you can also look up the words at http://www.merriam-webster.com and click on the "speaker" icon that appears next to the definition.
     
  14. Jun 17, 2010 #13
  15. Jun 17, 2010 #14

    DaveC426913

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    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Yeah, I got fascinated with phonemes after studying some of Tolkien's Middle Earth languages.

    Many letters that are unvoiced have an identical voiced counterpart:

    Code (Text):
    f k p s t ch th
    v g b z d j  th
     
  16. Jun 17, 2010 #15
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    he is a cunning linguist. i however look at the wikipedia IPA stuff and my eyes glaze over. why can't they just use the stuff i spent years in grammar school learning? i had a friend once that tried to teach me how to say "Nguyen", his surname. never did figure it out.
     
  17. Jun 18, 2010 #16
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    I think it's pronounced like we pronounce the word "when". Like half the people in southeast Asia have that name.


    Yeah, and I never understood all these different symbols they use to help you pronounce something. Like that upside down "e" or the one where the "a" and "e" are stuck together. They give me a drunk "e" and some Siamese twin letters to help me pronounce the words. Thanks for the help.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2010
  18. Jun 18, 2010 #17

    DaveC426913

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    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    [EDIT And I forgot, this can be extended even further in some cases.]
     
  19. Jun 18, 2010 #18
    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Colonel angus is a cunning linguist
     
  20. Jun 20, 2010 #19

    VietDao29

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    Re: "Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

    Thanks to you guys, now finally, I can distinguish the "ch" sound from the "j" one. :") Pronunciation is really one of my weak-points.. =.="

    Thank you Chi, BogG, Dave, and everyone else for all of your wonderful, and detailed explanation. :!!)
     
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