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Bilal

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klusener

you goddamn m fs...

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klusener

after seeing those little children, i feel that every action by the insurgents against these murderers is justified...

klusener

Bilal said:
Dear American and British,

We did not vote for Saddam, OBL and those who did 11/9, but you voted for those ....!!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4185719.stm

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thanks for bringing my attention to these things, bilal... i would have otherwise gone on without knowing the amount of "liberation" these children are recieving from the Americans and the British...

Bilal

Why poor and innocent people pay their blood for selfish rich people in the While House who want to get everything!!

This town, Tal Afar, is Turkmen (Very peaceful Iraqi Turkish), so what the hell they did with civilians of Falluja?!

Dear Bushisems,

Please, ask your army to leave Middle East, we are happy with (your old boy) Saddam and other dictators (also your boys!), no need to liberate us!! We do not want better life …..

You killed 100000 Iraqi civilians and ten thousands of poor Iraqi soldiers within 1.5 years!! While Saddam (your dog) killed 300000 people in 35 years!

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Gonzolo

Burnsys said:
Actually saddam and Osama were both helped and suported by US goverment
:yuck:
And then, they said thank you by... well, you know.

So then you can see the Iraq invasion and the removal of Saddam as a "Sorry guys, we put him there, we'll take him out now, here's you freedom back, sorry, sorry." But if it wasn't for Saddam, Iraqis might be controlled by Iranians now.

Anyway, in the context of a conflict between superpowers, such as during colonization of the Americas, or during the cold war, the non-superpowers have to be careful.

klusener

After you see this kind of stuff over and over again, you sort of understand the mentality of some of the insurgents, i mean we are just seeing this stuff on the internet, they are live right there on the streets seeing their fellow brothers being murdered.. Does this mean I am advocating them? No.. Some of them, like OBL are evil.. but then there are people like a prominent businessman, who after seeing all this murder by the troops, gave up his business and started fighting the troops.. I can understand his feelings and what put him in a position to do it...

Bilal

Dear klusener,

I am glad that my post is not for nothing. I would not surprise if some members justify such crimes ….

May be the kids are lucky because there are BBC journalist was on the checkpoint, so the soldiers sent them to the hospital.

I want those who support Bush to admit that they have no moral in Iraq. They are just imperialists who use fake reasons to justify their colonization as all imperialist in history did. They use their high technology to produce weapons for stealing the resources of poor nations.

The problem that normal American does not get advantage from these wars, all the interests go for oil-weapon industry Mafia.

klusener said:
thanks for bringing my attention to these things, bilal... i would have otherwise gone on without knowing the amount of "liberation" these children are recieving from the Americans and the British...

phatmonky

Bilal said:
You killed 100000 Iraqi civilians and ten thousands of poor Iraqi soldiers within 1.5 years!! While Saddam (your dog) killed 300000 people in 35 years!
Still using those unsubstantiated numbers are you?

Saddam actually killed more than that if you hold the theif responsible for the sentence that befits him (sanctions)... But you just said yourself you are happy with Saddam, but you act as if he is negative here.

phatmonky

US soldiers in Iraq approach a car after opening fire when it failed to stop at a checkpoint. Despite warning shots it continued to drive towards their dusk patrol in Tal Afar on 18 January.
You can blame two people for this:
1> The insurgents that blow up check points with car bombs
2> The car that did not stop

My goodness, look at those devils carrying children to the hospital!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/img/8.jpg

Bilal

Tal Afar is Turkmen town near the Turkish border. Actually there is no resistance in that region.

REALLY I do not know what to say to person who has no heart for those kids ….

The devil carries the kids because there is BBC Camera! Who know what they do if there are no journalist on the checkpoint?

phatmonky said:
You can blame two people for this:
1> The insurgents that blow up check points with car bombs
2> The car that did not stop

My goodness, look at those devils carrying children to the hospital!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/img/8.jpg

klusener

What kind of thinking is that phatmonkey, if someone brutalized and murdered your parents and then to avoid bad publicity took you to the hospital with the press at their side, would you worship them and thank them for taking you to the hospital...

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Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
Bilal, why do you say we have no heart for the kids when we point out that the moral issues in this confrontation, like many of the moral issues in the current Iraq situation, are complex. The soldiers did not set out to orphan the children and in the present terrorist attacks they have the right to defend themselves.

klusener

Bilal, why do you say we have no heart for the kids when we point out that the moral issues in this confrontation, like many of the moral issues in the current Iraq situation, are complex. The soldiers did not set out to orphan the children and in the present terrorist attacks they have the right to defend themselves.
He did not saying anything to you, he replied to what he thought were insensitive comments from phatmonky.. As Bilal already said, that area was a peaceful Turkish area, if this happened in Fallujah I would accept your argument...

Burnsys

phatmonky said:
You can blame two people for this:
1> The insurgents that blow up check points with car bombs
2> The car that did not stop

My goodness, look at those devils carrying children to the hospital!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/img/8.jpg
This is the propaganda machine in ACTION.

DISPLACEMENT OF BLAME

The most frequent technique employed in the mitigation of coalition culpability is the displacement of responsibility onto the Iraqis themselves. There is a suggestion that were it not for Iraqi tactics, their trickery, and their persistence in not letting the coalition kill them, risks to civilians would never occur. The Iraqis initiate violence; they invite reciprocation; they “draw” the military into using their biggest weapons. US and UK actions are always seen as a response to an Iraqi action. A pattern of cause and effect is established in which coalition actions are always seen as a response. Coalition forces are cast as trying to play a gentle role and being pulled reluctantly into confrontations. It is hard to extract from this narrative the reality of the largest concentration of sophisticated weaponry ever seen, being used to invade a country defended by a demoralised, poorly armed and even worse led rag tag militia.

Some examples from BBC:

“…But British troops have been drawn into urban fighting…” [ BBC Online, 04/04/03]

“…This is Noah…he’s twelve and he’s fighting for his life in hospital since a bomb targeting Iraqi fighters hiding in his neighborhood hit his house…”[11] [BBC1, 6pm, 09/04/03]

“…there is no doubt…that civilians of Basra are in danger of being hurt by many of the weapons being fired towards Iraqi troops taking shelter in the city…” [Today, 03/04/04]

Those paragrhaps are not casual, they are very well orchestated scripts to brainwash the american people to support the criminal activities of their goverment.

russ_watters

Mentor
Bilal said:
The devil carries the kids because there is BBC Camera! Who know what they do if there are no journalist on the checkpoint?
With statements like this, it is clear that you will believe whatever you want to believe and even direct evidence to the contrary will not convince you. There is no hope of a reasonable, logical conversation with you.

But on the off chance, perhaps you can explain why the American (and British and Australian...) "devils" are spending billions on aid in Indonesia and their suppossed brothers in the middle east are not even pitching in a thousandth of that? Who really cares?

klusener

When he said devils, he meant the people who murdered the parents, who happened to be American troops, he made no reference to British and Australian troops... and I am quite sure that America alone hasn't given billions of aid to Indonesia, I might be wrong, but please provide a source to back up your statement about the "billions" in aid.. Besides, he was only using the word devil, since the person whose post he replied to used it.

But the oil rich countries, especially Saudi Arabia, have failed miserably to help their counterparts in Indonesia.. at the same time, I have nagging suspicions that United States might have a hidden agenda to show themselves as the "good and the defenders of the free world" to the Indonesian people.. I actually found an ironic picture relation to this, don't remember the site, where the Indonesian person who was giving aid or recieving don't remember had a photo of Bin Laden on his shirt..

klusener

I am going to have to disagree about your statements concerning "thousandth"

US monetary aid: 350,000,000
Saudi Arabia monetary aid: 30,000,000

that's only about 11 times more, just estimating.. lol..
if it was thousandth, it would be $350,000.. Kuwait has given a$100,000,000.. that is only 3.5 times less that US aid, and I don't think that is a thousandth either..

Using Bush's words from the debates: "I think that is an exaggeration" on your part

klusener

source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/dis_tsu_fun_ple [Broken]

and if you look at per capita, Kuwait, "one of the brothers in the Middle East" has given the highest.. Quatar, "another brother" has the 4th highest...

Incidentally, the per capita of Saudi Arabia is higher than that of the United States.. SA is 24th, US is 25th...

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phatmonky

klusener said:
I am going to have to disagree about your statements concerning "thousandth"

US monetary aid: 350,000,000
Saudi Arabia monetary aid: 30,000,000

that's only about 11 times more, just estimating.. lol..
if it was thousandth, it would be $350,000.. Kuwait has given a$100,000,000.. that is only 3.5 times less that US aid, and I don't think that is a thousandth either..

Using Bush's words from the debates: "I think that is an exaggeration" on your part
Has Kuwaits leaders rallied for people to give privately?
Have Kuwait's people given privately as much as the USA?
Has Kuwait deployed helicopters, ships, and aide SINCE DAY ONE like the USA?

So many things that everyone loves to say "well that doesn't count", when it very well does.
The immediate aide response was solely by the USA. Why? Because we can. I understand that we are the only ones cabable of such a fast response, but it sure is pathetic to see so many people gloss over it in their never ending efforts to minimize our good deeds.

phatmonky

Oh look, I answered my own question - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/dis_tsu_fun_ple_by_ngo_and_pub [Broken]
There's how much we are giving JUST by the public.

Just because we don't prefer to have our government do all of our bidding doesn't make us stingy.
I wonder when there will be a chart of the military expenditures that were rerouted to help out,

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klusener

My point was not to minimize or to in anyway lessen the amount of help the US has provided over this incident.. My point was to prove that Russ's statement about the "thousandth" was false..

russ_watters

Mentor
That must be recent: I'd heard $10 million, I thought for Saudia Arabia. I stand corrected (RE: Soudia Arabia and Kuwait - but where are the others?). In any case, that's only two countries (albeit the most wealthy). But also, what about individuals and corporations? Only Saudia Arabia is on phat's list. Of combined aid (the graph is on the same site - Germany, the US, and Australia have pledged a total of a$1 billion each), Saudia Arabia and Kuwait have pledged 1/10 what the US (and several other western nations) have pledged - and no other ME or muslim nations make the list, which cuts off at 1/20th what the western nations have pledged. Then we also have the money that won't ever be counted: the material aid the US is providing (I'd have to guess the US navy is spending about \$10 million a day).

The question is still valid (and unanswered) - why are the muslim nations (governments and people) spending a tiny fraction of what western nations are spending? Do they not care?

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Smurf

Ok, Resources given 1:20 for western : middle eastern powers.

Now, whats ratio for what they have to give?