# CNN's Alien believers among us

1. Nov 25, 2008

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
2. Nov 25, 2008

### leopard

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

We all know that many credible people have faith in God. As for them, these people would have been even more credible if they didn't have faith in aliens.

3. Nov 25, 2008

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

The reason the first gentleman can now speak out is that his documented military encounter has been released by the Ministry of Defense. It was classified until now. He had been ordered to shoot it down but was not able to do so.

If you had been paying attention, you would know that.

Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
4. Nov 25, 2008

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
5. Nov 25, 2008

### leopard

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

Fairy tales of modern day.

6. Nov 26, 2008

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

How do you defend that? These are documented military cases from government files.

Are you just making a leap of faith?

7. Nov 26, 2008

### leopard

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

Just because there's a phenomenon we don't understand, doesn't make it supernatural. Just like people long ago explained strange sounds and shapes in the dark as being trolls, fairies etc, today we explain objects in the skies as being visitors from other stars. That is a leap of faith. I am not making a leap of faith, I simply point to the similarities between believing in in alien visitors and believing in other supernatural beings.

I noticed that for some reason, it's not allowed to discuss religion here. Well, I think belief in aliens is no more rational. Consequently it shouldn't be allowed either.

8. Nov 26, 2008

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

No one has claimed anything supernatural, but I understand your point.

It may or may not be depending on what a person saw. I agree that most people make judgements and leap to conclusions that can't be supported. But it is also true that some highly credible reports describe crafts that defy the physics that we understand. This is not always just a matter of fuzzy lights in the sky.

You said it is all fairy tales. You certainly can't know that for a fact, so it is a leap of faith. And the evidence is not some person telling an unsupportable story. These cases are, for all practical purposes, facts. The interpretations are subject to debate, but to argue that they never occurred amounts to a conspiracy theory since we have government issued documents saying otherwise. Conspiracy theories are not allowed for discussion.

Last edited: Nov 26, 2008
9. Nov 26, 2008

### leopard

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

First, what make these reports credible? Second; these objects are never captured on film, why? Third; what makes people jump to the conclusion that the objects are filled with little green men?

UFOs exist, no doubt, but it stops there. To assert anything more is a conspiracy.

Correct, I can't know that aliens don't exist among us, but I can't know that trolls, unicorns, ghosts, angels, demons, gods or tooth fairies don't exist among us either. I don't claim knowledge of non-existence, that would be irrational. I do, however, stick with the null posision, which is that aliens don't exist on our planet. Strictly speaking, I'm an alien agnostic , just like I'm a tooth fairy agnostic, but that doesn't make me protest when someone claims that tooth fairies only exist only in fairy tales.

10. Nov 26, 2008

### LightbulbSun

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

Why are you so hellbent on proving us wrong? Just give it up already Ivan.

11. Nov 26, 2008

### LightbulbSun

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

Aliens are not supernatural. They're just other lifeforms.

12. Nov 26, 2008

### LightbulbSun

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

Ok, now you're going off the deep end Ivan. Is there some deep-seated need to believe this is true? I mean what's next? Are you going to tell us there are credible reports of astrologers accurately predicting human personality?

Facts based on your personal criteria?

13. Nov 26, 2008

### leopard

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

Nothing that exists is supernatural. If trolls or unicorns or bigfoot exist, they're just other lifeforms too. Supernatural/metaphysical/you name it, are pointless words that could have been replaced by 'non-existing'.

It's not their alien form that makes them supernatural, but their presence on Earth when they're supposed to be in very remote parts of the universe.

Last edited: Nov 26, 2008
14. Nov 26, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

FWIW -

assume that, unlike science in 1890, we now actually have a decent grip on Physics - the Standard Model is correct for entities at our non-quantum level of existence. In plain words, travelling from planet A to planet B in our the universe means expending lots of energy and resources. In addition, it requires life support for extended periods of time -- which requires even more expenditure of resources. This seems like a pretty safe assumption, based on mankind's escapades to the Moon and back.

Also, let's assume there is no other intelligent life in the Solar system. At this point, this seems like a very safe assumption to make based on our current knowledge. We could probably include ourselves in that list of non-intelligent beings for even having to have discussions like this one. :)

Let's also assume there are planets like ours with technologically advanced civilizations within a radius of say 150 light years.

Then, the cost of travelling -- a minimum of 4 light years (Alpha centauri) and up to our 150 light year limit -- to another world is a dollar sign, a 1 and a looong string of zeroes after it.

Going to the moon takes several days, and requires lots of time, energy, and money.
Going to Alpha centauri will take proportionally more. Alpha centauri is 4 light years (9.5 trillion km) distant, the moon 380000 km.

The cost of going to the moon was $US 20b in 1960$US - or about 40 billion now. One 10 day flight of the Challenger cost about 3.5 billion. Pick a really large number of dollars to create and launch a vessel that can make it to Alpha centauri and back in 50 years, and keep everybody on board alive. Good Luck. How about 100 trillion dollars?
Or maybe the GDP of our planet for 10 years.

Since we can't invoke Physics concepts that don't yet exist to argue this problem away, it means that even if they are out there, them coming here to visit or pillage is prohibitive. It's not like they can cheaply and effectively cart off all of Earth's goodies and some sample Terran denizens back home for personal gain.

We need an alternate explanation for the alien thing, one that does not involve living beings from other planets visiting us here.

15. Nov 26, 2008

### pftest

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

Thats what they said 100yrs ago about going to the moon...

16. Nov 26, 2008

### leopard

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

There were no physical laws that prevented us from going to the moon.

17. Nov 26, 2008

### pftest

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

Bending space is theoretically possible. Even so, claims about the absolute impossibility of (easy) interstellar travel make me cringe. I understand we have to argue from present day knowledge, but lets be humble and realistic and admit that we cant really predict what new discoveries lie ahead of us.

18. Nov 26, 2008

### leopard

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

It takes enormous amounts on energy. Why would extremely smart aliens spend all their money and energy to visit our planet? And how come they're able to bend space, but never manage to reveal themselves to others than semi-stupified peasants on the countryside? It's ridiculous!

19. Nov 26, 2008

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

It is not important to explain the hows and ifs. What is important is to address the evidence that we have. We don't know everything and physics is not complete. Perhaps a race of beings with a billion years head start knows a few things we don't.

I don't know if ET is here, but there are highly credible people who will [and have] swear before Congress that he is. But of course each person judges these claims according to their own sensibilities.

My only goal is to bring the most dramatic and credible cases to light, and to squelch the giggle factor where appropriate. ET? I dont know, but it isn't all nonsense.

Last edited: Nov 26, 2008
20. Nov 26, 2008

### LightbulbSun

Re: CNN's "Alien believers among us"

You haven't squelched my giggle factor yet. Hey, did you know that someone in the government thinks 9/11 was an inside job? It must be credible, he works for the government!

Come on, you can do better than this. Lets see some actual evidence, and not just people telling stories. And yes they're stories. It doesn't matter what occupation they're in. They're still stories Ivan until evidence is shown to support these stories.