Can Condensation Occur in a Vacuum-Sealed Container?

In summary, Russ is saying that temperature has a meaning when there are no particles in the atmosphere, but that vacuum has no temperature. He is also saying that vacuum is not very good for condensing things because there is always frosting.
  • #1
Maun
3
0
Hi

I have been thinking about this idea and i'we come to the conclusion that i need to discuss this with someone who has a better understanding of physics than i have.
First off, let me help you visualize it:

You put pieces of hardware that generate heat inside of a container, the container has a thermoelectric motor which tries to keep the insides of the container at 20 degrees celsius, like a fridge, but the container itself is vacuum sealed.

Would there be any condensation inside of the container?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
Hi Maun, welcome to PF!

Do you mean there is vacuum inside? If yes, then there's nothing to condense, by the definiton of vacuum.
 
  • #3
Thank you for the fast reply.
Would there still be no condensation if the containers temperature would go below 0 degrees?
 
  • #4
But what do you want to condense? There needs to be some gas molecules inside first.
 
  • #5
And how can the inside be at 20C if it is a vacuum? This doesn't make sense to me. Are you vacuum sealing food? Those aren't much of a vacuum.
 
  • #6
russ_watters said:
And how can the inside be at 20C if it is a vacuum? This doesn't make sense to me. Are you vacuum sealing food? Those aren't much of a vacuum.
What would the temperature be inside of a vacuum then?
 
  • #7
Maun said:
What would the temperature be inside of a vacuum then?
What russ is talking about is the fact that temperature actually has a meaning of "average kinetic energy of particles". With no particles to speak of, as in vacuum, it makes no sense to speak of temperature of the inside of the box.
However, one could talk about the temperature of the walls of the box, and the thermal radiation filling the inside space. Still, the distinction needs to be made clear - for vacuum the concept of temperature stops making sense.

Back to condensation - for condensation to occur, first there has to be some gas to condense (which means change into its liquid phase). Then the combination of pressure and temperature must be within certain limits. If the pressure is too low, as you lower the temperature you'll see that the gas never condenses and instead resublimates (i.e., changes directly into a solid). For water vapour this occurs at about 1% of the standard atmospheric pressure. If your vacuum is better than that, there will be no condensation no matter how cold the walls of the container get - but there will be frosting.
It works similarly for other atmospheric gases.
 
Last edited:
  • #8
Maun said:
What would the temperature be inside of a vacuum then?

To be fair, the container would be at a Temperature, however many odd molecules there might be buzzing around inside the container. Their velocity distribution would correspond to the container temperature.

Obtaining very high vacua is highly technical because you can expect molecules of all sorts of stuff on the surfaces of the containers / tubing / pump etc..
Even out in the deepest space, you can expect one proton in every metre cube - not to mention the virtual particles that come and go - so there is no real point in trying to discuss a 'perfect' vacuum.
 

1. Can condensation occur in a vacuum-sealed container?

Yes, condensation can occur in a vacuum-sealed container. However, the chances of it occurring are significantly lower compared to a non-vacuum-sealed container.

2. What causes condensation in a vacuum-sealed container?

Condensation in a vacuum-sealed container is caused by the presence of water vapor or other gases inside the container. When the temperature inside the container drops below the dew point, the water vapor or gases can condense into liquid form.

3. How can condensation be prevented in a vacuum-sealed container?

To prevent condensation in a vacuum-sealed container, it is important to ensure that the container is completely sealed and airtight. Additionally, removing any moisture or gas from the container before sealing can also help prevent condensation.

4. What are the effects of condensation in a vacuum-sealed container?

The effects of condensation in a vacuum-sealed container can vary depending on the contents of the container. In some cases, it may cause damage to the contents, especially if they are sensitive to moisture. It can also lead to a decrease in the vacuum pressure inside the container.

5. Can condensation in a vacuum-sealed container be reversed?

Yes, condensation in a vacuum-sealed container can be reversed by reheating the container to a temperature above the dew point. This will cause the water vapor or gases to evaporate and return to their gaseous state.

Similar threads

  • Other Physics Topics
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • Other Physics Topics
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • Mechanical Engineering
Replies
3
Views
1K
Replies
14
Views
5K
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • General Engineering
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
7
Views
906
  • Optics
Replies
27
Views
3K
  • Engineering and Comp Sci Homework Help
Replies
13
Views
2K
Back
Top