The part I'm confused about - in order to have two distinct observations of a system you want to check for symmetry isn't something asymmetrical is required to distinguish them... as distinct observations. If we say a system is completely closed and are restricted to refer only to that system how do we know we have observed the system across any interval that could prove symmetry or lack thereof - if the system actually has perfect symmetry? Wouldn't that just mean - there is no observable change. How would we mark the observation as started or complete?" If we enlarge the observed system to include an asymmetric measurement against which we see our (original) system is symmetric (doesn't change) - logically haven't we actually only observed asymmetry in the enlarged system. Doesn't it seem odd to turn around and say "we observed symmetry!" in our original system. It's not that saying it doesn't make sense but it just seems odd. To me it seems more reasonable to say - jeez we can't tell anything at all without reference to some asymmetry. This is part of what is driving me crazy trying to picture invariant everywhere physical laws based on observed or expected symmetries.