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Coriolis effect - polarised gravity?

  1. Oct 15, 2003 #1
    Hi all. Please excuse my tendancy to over generalise

    There is some theorising going on and certain evidence to suggest that gravity may actually be polarized. Some scientists are looking at our weather patterns for instance and the well known Coriolis effect. Some now suggest that gravity is in fact polarised space time torsionally in other words the northern hemisphere is a clockwise spiral reducing towards the centre , and the southern hemisphere is a anti- clockwise spiral reducing towards the centre. The division between the two being the equator.

    The interesting thing about these concepts is that if proven true the magnetic field of the earth can be explained as being a product of these space time spirals interacting with each other and the matter that they support. Also if one uses the earths magnetic/gravity state as an example of matter then it may very well prove to be an exciting development.

    If one looks at a tornado for example or even a cyclone as being an example of the effects of torsional gravity it sort of makes sense. allowing for shifts in theoretical culminate centres of gravity which can come about due to changes in temperature.

    I think also one has to look at everything as being an effect of gravity and this of course includes the worlds weather.

    Has any one heard of any of this before?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Oct 15, 2003 #2
    I haven't hear of it, but I know that the Coriolis effect is completely accounted for by newtonian mech. and needs no extra explaination. I'd explain now, but as I said before, not much time.
     
  4. Oct 15, 2003 #3

    enigma

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    The coriolis force drops out of the equations when you differentiate an angular position denoted as a radius and an angle from a reference plane twice (giving the acceleration as a function of time). No pseudoscientific explanations are necessary.
     
  5. Oct 15, 2003 #4

    Chi Meson

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    Jonathan, enigma, your posts indicate that you are kind people :wink:

    Seriously, any evidence for polarized gravity would have had to include the discovery of the graviton (I'm making the assumption that the polarization would be similar to the polarization of E-M waves). I can't imagine that any serious physicist would have persued such an idea in ernest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2003
  6. Oct 16, 2003 #5
    I thought enigma and chi meson where being a little mean. Keep in mind that this is the theory development page. I don't care how crazy it is, I come to this page to hear new unusual ideas on everything!
     
  7. Oct 16, 2003 #6
    As enigma suggests the effect is often explained in this fashion as they apparently needed to understand it for the armed forces weapons targeting needs but i think this is only one of the effects. The second effect is simply the most famous one and that is that when you flush a toilet there is a different rotational spiral depending on the hemisphere you are in. Now Can any one explain why there would be two different rotations other than an act of "G"
     
  8. Oct 16, 2003 #7
    I the case of a toliet or sink full of water, the Coriolis effect is too small to be relevant, less than the chirpping of a cricket a block away. One can get water to drain on small scales in both directions in both hemispheres. In the case of hurricanes and the like, the Coriolis effect is a result of instantaneous velocity differentials on the north/south axis of a large system because of the fact that the Earth's angular velocity is the same regardless of your latitude. Give me a minute and I'll post a oversimplified picture.
    Edit: Sorry, can't get enough info small enough, no picture
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2003
  9. Oct 16, 2003 #8
    I am not sure why there is a destinction that separates gravity from everything else.

    Gravity I feel is all pervasive IT's impacts are profoundly effecting everything. When i look at the weather I see gravity at work When i see a car go by I see gravity at work. When i see an aeroplane flying i see gravity in motiion that is the plain is gravity space time.

    When I see the wind lift a young girls skirt (Ha) I see gravity at work both the wind and the skirt and the motion up and down. I don't draw a destinction.

    May be thats a fault. But tell me what isn't gravity. even EM is gravity of some sort.

    A variation on a theme.

    Gravity is the fundemental force ...all other forces are a variation of gravity and this is MY premise I guess.
     
  10. Oct 16, 2003 #9
    If they are all variations of the same thing, like water ice and steam, then why not define gravity through EM theory rather than the other way around, because that way we don't have to unnecessarily start over.
     
  11. Oct 16, 2003 #10

    Chi Meson

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    Scott,
    I'm sorry, really! My post does look meaner than intended; I guess sometimes the "smilies" don't soften sarcastic remarks so well.

    So, here is my opinion:

    As already noted, the coriolis effect is well accounted for; the conservation of angular momentum is well accounted for and a law regarding it is considered to be unbreakable; the effects of gravity are extremely well documeted, and the Newtonian theory as well as the Einsteinian theory, and the graviton/gravity-wave speculation will each individually explain the effects of gravity.

    If there were a polarization of gravity, it would have profound effects across the universe, and all of the above phenomena, Laws, and theories would have to be altered if not chucked out entirely.

    Of course it just might be true and everything we know so far is wrong. That would indeed be a breakthrough and worth several Nobel prizes. But it does hinge (I think)on the detection of gravity waves (not the gravitons as I said before)which are more and more looking like they don't exist.

    So from my vantage point, with a 20-year-old BS in astrophysics, and 20 years of forgetting quantum physics, and many years of trying to keep a very open mind, I remain utterly sceptical of this speculation.
     
  12. Oct 16, 2003 #11
    I don't wish to show any disrepect for other persons qualifications or experience. I know that a lot of hard work has gone in to them and i respect that. I haven't gone to university because there is no one that can teach me what i want to learn. I know we have theories that have proven very useful and are obviously sucessful. But in the field of gravity we are all just beginners. You guys are looking down on gravity via em and particle theory and i am attempting to look up from a position of nothing. you are looking from a position of something and i am, well,looking from a position of nothing except observation. And i happen to think this is a great thing because somewhere in the middle it's all going to make sense.



    The reason I think there is a problem is what we think is polarisation. I am theorising on torsional polarisation that leads to magnetic or em polarisation and i might add may very well explain the tendancy for matter to rotate.

    My method was quite simple I guess and really hyperthetical.

    I imagine a 3 dimensional hole to nothing in the space fabric.

    I think to my self...how would one plug such a hole.

    and well I got an equalateral pyramid and drew 4 cones to suggest spirals ( spirals being way to hard to draw.)

    I've placed the diagram at http://au.geocities.com/scotts1959

    Ok we have a minimum number of cones needed to plug this hole and that is four. But hey we can have any number above this. But 4 suggests a lack of stasis. if you look at it you'll get the impression that it wants to move....rotate....even hum ....i think

    OK.. I notice that the coriolis effect is perpendicular to our magnetic field and I think well magnetism can be used to create electricity by passing a stronger form of Spacial intesity through it Namely copper wire. So I thought well if the gravity of earth was torsionally polarised to wit anti clockwise vs clockwise and assuming this exists in all matter you have spiralling space time interaction thus generating another variation of itself called a magnetic field.....This is theory developement yes?

    The effect of these spirals does not have to be ordered as they are impacted on by a whole host of things ...like temperature changes, solar fluctuations, solar winds, light emmisions and so on.....so the bugger called gravity conforms rarely to any disernable pattern given a variable culminant centre of attraction making it extremely hard to quantify. A culminant centre of attraction is a centre of gravity for any given area. It is like a roming black hole. with no fixed address seeing as the planet is made up of alot of individual pieces of matter each with their own little hole. The culminat effect is a variable centre of attraction for some of the spirals.

    So we have relatively fixed centres (hard matter) and a variable culminant centre which is a culminant of all the other centres. generating off centred effects like tornados that don't touch the ground and tornados that seem to have a centre of gravity below the earths surface.

    However every now and then we see a pattern of spirals such as cyclonic storms tornados, hmmm water down a drain, circular weather patterns some what circular ice flows at the south poles and at the north etc...I think if one looks one can find many examples of it. And I know this proves nothing but i think it says heaps.

    angular momentum is just a version on a theme as gravity is all pervasive If on swings a object on a string until it is horizontal in it's plane and stops swinging the object scribes a spiral as it slowly comes to rest. You say.... so.what.. I see gravity. like I see the tip of my nose. (which I might add is also a variation to a theme)

    Just to throw in another example of variation i ask

    What is the difference between common static electricity (shoes on carpet stuff) and electricity?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2003
  13. Oct 16, 2003 #12

    Chi Meson

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    All right, peace. There has obviously been a lot of thought put into this idea. To become a theory though, and to come into the realm of acceptance, you will have to be able to make some prediction with this theory that can be upheld. Since it requires that nearly all rules be rewritten and new mathematical models be built, this theory has a lot of work to do.
     
  14. Oct 16, 2003 #13
    Hi,
    Chi,

    I know it's hard to explain this but I happen to have a particular gift which causes me some problems at times. Once i start talking or writing stuff my ideas evolve. The more I talk (write) the more the ideas evolve in a very dynamic way. More so than what would be considered normal

    Since I posted my last discourse (not planned ) I have been thinking through other observations I have made and I tell you what this theory is just falling in to place. I even know what the legendary graviton looks like.

    I would like you to pm me if possible because I think you have greater experience with theory composition than I do. (mentoring?)

    I belive that certain predictions are available and certainly the math would also prove to be possible.

    For instance with the right computer modeling and processing power you can predict the movement and shape of a gas in the open atmosphere. And may be, if enough variables are considered weather forcasting becomes more reliable.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2003
  15. Oct 16, 2003 #14

    Chi Meson

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    Respectfully, I have to decline. FIrst of all, the math was never my strong suit, and most of my calculus is as fogotten as my German. I barely have enough time to participate in these forums at 3 posts per day, so I wouldn't have any more time to commit (I teach college level physics to high school students. I also teach "bottom floor physics" to other high school students, so if I ever seem cranky...well that's the reason).

    Other people in these forums are clearly more "up" on things. They are in the major leagues, I'm a "AA" player. (That's a baseball analogy, and I see you're Austrailian) THis post is approaching chit chat.
     
  16. Oct 18, 2003 #15
    I just remembered something of my days as a motor mechanic...ahh so long ago....

    To support the notion of polarised gravity.....when you pass a current of electricity through a wire a magnetic field is created.

    It's direction of rotation for want of a better word is dependent on the polarity of the current. Was called the "fist" approach with thumb pointing to the earth (negative) I think.

    Also does anyone know any evidence or theory that proves gravity IS NOT polarised?
     
  17. Oct 19, 2003 #16

    russ_watters

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    The way you are looking at science is backwards. Starting from nothing you will have to produce hundreds of years of scientific research on your own before you can begin to extend the current level of scientific knowledge. Further, unless you can understand the current theories, you have nothing on which to base any objection to them. Which is why you are wasting your time with things like this:
    Yes. If gravity were polarized, everthing we know about orbital mechanics would be wrong. The theories work well enough (at the very least) to send spacecraft into orbit of or past the outer planets in the solar system, so gravity cannot be polarized.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2003
  18. Oct 19, 2003 #17
    Russ,

    What are you trying to defend? I am not attacting any ones theories. I am just attempting to open the mind a little.

    Have I quoted any ones theories...No....Am I objecting to any one's theories...no.

    The discussion I thought was about the possible torsional polarity of gravity and not just attacking and defending someones theories.


    The previous posts asks a simple question about why a magnetic field in a wire carrying current has a rotational direction linked to the polarity of that current.

    would this not suggest that there may be a ppossible link between torsional and current polarity?

    Why is the object of this previous post being ignored?




    Would not this effect imply what it does?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2003
  19. Oct 20, 2003 #18

    russ_watters

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    When you propose something in direct contradiction to an existing theory, whether you are aware of it or not, you are attacking the theory.

    The corollary is also true - your lack of knowledge of the existing theories does not decrease their validity nor increase the validity of your own.

    Existing theories adequately explain the phenomenon you are describing. What you are proposing would neither fit existing data nor the theories that explain the data.

    Whether intentional or not, the net result is an attitude of 'I am not bound by existing theories.' Sorry, but you are.
    Gravity and magnetic fields have little in common. You cannot assume that one will mirror the other.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2003
  20. Oct 20, 2003 #19
    Russ, cool it a little, this is the TDF. I do agree though, in most cases Newton's theory is good enough. However, I might mention that many people at looking at MOND to fix the anomalous observations. The whole problem, Scott, is that you come up with theories not based on some evidence that needs explaining, but apparently out of no where. Start with a mystery, end with understanding.
     
  21. Oct 21, 2003 #20

    russ_watters

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    If I come off as harsh, its just me being frank/direct. I won't go the Chroot route...
     
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