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Cost of the war in Iraq: Democrat's analysis

  1. Sep 28, 2004 #1

    Ivan Seeking

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    http://www.house.gov/budget_democrats/analyses/iraq_cost_update.pdf
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 28, 2004 #2
    You must hate America and not want Democracy to succede in Iraq to post such a thing.

    The Congress is clearly a biased organization, show me a Drudge report on it and I'll consider it.
     
  4. Sep 28, 2004 #3

    Ivan Seeking

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    are you serious?
     
  5. Sep 28, 2004 #4
    Yes, by posting something saying Iraq isn't going well is clearly just a partisan attempt to de-moralize the effort to Democratize Iraq by our brave, heroic, partiotic soldiers. Haven't you seen Bush's speeches? He clearly states that Iraq is on the right path and constantly getting better, and he's the President, he obviously knows more about it than anyone else would.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2004
  6. Sep 28, 2004 #5
    oh good, for a minute I considered the possiblity that you weren't being sarcastic.
     
  7. Sep 28, 2004 #6

    Ivan Seeking

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    What you are saying is that Bush should never be questioned or challenged. This is not patriotic; this is cultish. It is called blind patriotism - one of the most dangerous things of all. Your attitude is exactly what scares me about the right in general. Bush is dangerous.

    The war is not going well. Bush has mismanaged this entire affair beyond imagination - a greater disaster than 911 all considered. We must now carry the cost in money and lives, mostly alone, instead of in concert with many nations. He has lied from the start and he has squandered the greatest good will shown this nation in my lifetime.
     
  8. Sep 28, 2004 #7
    no really, he's being sarcastic... really.
     
  9. Sep 28, 2004 #8

    Ivan Seeking

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    I asked. Are we just playing games here or what?

    Anyway, this just hit the wires:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58183-2004Sep28.html
     
  10. Sep 29, 2004 #9

    graphic7

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    Who are you to say that the Iraqis have a desire for democracy?
     
  11. Sep 29, 2004 #10

    russ_watters

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    That question implies to me that you don't understand what the word "democracy" means.
     
  12. Sep 29, 2004 #11

    graphic7

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    I understand what "forcing" a democracy on a sovereign nation means.

    Would you care to iteratate on how I fail to understand what the definition of "democracy" means, Russ?

    To quote dictionary.com:

    1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
    2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
    3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
    Majority rule.
    4. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

    All of which refer to some aspect of a government. I personally believe that if the Iraqi citizens truly desired a democracy, they would've done it on their own. The moment you force democracy on a group of people, it's no longer democracy.

    Perhaps I'm the only one that again see the irony in this situation. The United States forces democracy on a nation via the *military*. Doesn't that just ridicule the whole democratic system?

    It seems to me that you're the one that doesn't understand what democracy is, Russ.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2004
  13. Sep 29, 2004 #12

    kat

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    Graphic7-How many democracies do you think were formed "via" force by the military? A minority? a majority?
     
  14. Sep 29, 2004 #13

    graphic7

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    Via the force of the miltary is relative, Kat. As far as I know the successful democracies of the world were actually formed by the citizens' desire, not by an outside invasion. Good try though, Kat.
     
  15. Sep 29, 2004 #14

    LURCH

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    I would be somewhat skeptical of any figures being presented by either party. The topic of this thread shows that the source quoted in the original post is representing the Democratic party, so I would expect the estimate to be a little high, unless I see the same numbers from a representative of the Republican party. Likewise, I would expect any estimate from the Republican Party to be rather low. However, I do agree with the opening paragraph, and most especially this statement:
    As has been said since the beginning of this conflict, it's not going to be easy, and it's not going to happen quickly. The open war was the easy part; it is the restructuring of a country that has never known democracy, the liberating of a people who have never known freedom, and gaining the trust of people who have never seen anything but betrayal and brutality from those in power, these are the great challenges ahead.

    I don't know if we outsiders can truly grasp what a total wreck Iraq was, or how utterly hopeless the life of the average citizen used to be. Such damage is not undone without great effort.

    I don't know what the true cost of restructuring Iraq will turn out to be, but of this we can all be quite certain; the cost of leaving it the way it was would have been much higher.
     
  16. Sep 29, 2004 #15
    I could handle 400 billion for iraq if we didn't just hand 500 billion to pharmaceutical companies.
     
  17. Sep 29, 2004 #16

    russ_watters

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    This statement also implies you don't know what a democracy is.
    Sure: phrases like "forcing a democracy" are self-contradictory.
    See, there's the key: you're mixing two completely different issues. The question of how the change is made to take place is completely different from what form the final government will be in. Certainly, we are forcing a change to take place. But we are not dictating the final form of the Iraqi government.

    Further, the idea that people can easily revolt on a whim to change their form of government is pretty abusurd. Dictators tend to be highly successful in the short run. They rarely ever cede power except in death.
    The situation certainly is ironic, but you're reading it backwards. Again, the phrase "forcing democracy" is an oxymoron. Democracy is a choice, by its very nature. It can't be forced on anyone.

    The part you are missing is that the US is not imposing our form of government on Iraq. The US knocked off the government that existed (a government which did not have the support of the people) and is now allowing the people to create their own government. What we are doing is forcing the Iraqi government to give its people the choice.

    Yes, it is true that the US is setting up some constraints on the structure of the government, but by and large, the people of Iraq are building their own government and once they have a stable government in place, we'll release complete control of it to them.

    It seems like you are implying that there could be such a thing as a democratically elected dictator. Again, this is an oxymoron, but it certainly is theoretically possible that someone could propose an amendmen to the constitution (for example) to disband the legislative and judicial branches. But theoretically possible does not make it a historical reality. People don't do such things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2004
  18. Sep 30, 2004 #17
    Basic economic theory can prove the war was stupid.

    Is it more efficient to kill people and take what they have or be diplomatic and trade with them fairly?

    When you kill them, do you realize what power one human has at their disposal. One person alone can causes millions of dollars in damage. Murdering Iraqis and pissing off millions of them, was a stupid, uneconomic mistake all the way around.

    When you are fair to people, do you know how much power there is in cooperation? Those who've given up on this superior ideal are in power in our country, with the support of petty-Nazi-Republican, religious nuts.

    But in Bushspeak, one who defends Iraqi Homeland is a terrorist. As long as you don't get this, America goes further in debt. Now go out and beat someone up and see how economic that is. We'll put you in jail and it will cost the tax payers idiot!
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2004
  19. Sep 30, 2004 #18
    graphic7,

    I agree with you somewhat, but I believe all circumstances are Demcracys, even in situations where people are fighting a dictator or accept laws that would seem unjust to another types of Democracys.

    Democracy is a principle in human circumstances rather than a perfect entity.

    If the people aren't killing those in the regime that control the functions of government, they accept the government by demonstrating a peacefull attitude. This is Democracy.

    If the people are killing those in the regime who controls the functions of government, this too is Democracy.

    Democracy is only the relative expression of the people in terms of the existing government.

    Where there is killing on the side of the people against the governing regime is less a Democracy though.

    Where killing on the side of the governing regime against the people is less a demcracy also.

    But the killing on the side of an invading governing regime against the people is the least type of Demcracy that can exist.

    A regime that attempts to govern a people who were at peace with one another not killing each other in a huge political magnitude sense, who enters their sovereighn territory, and begins murdering innocent civilians and destroying their property is hardly a Democracy, but still is somewhat.

    Democracy is of the people. Which means it comes from the people. The people are responsible to make their own revolutions. Dictators who invade and call an invasion and occupation Democracy while killing mostly civilians-the people, is the lowest, vilest, filthiest Democracy that can exist, and is criminal in nature. Democracy has criminal forms. The invasion of Iraq is a prime example. American citizens democratically approved, by direct support, or by inactive default, by allowing Bush act as president.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2004
  20. Sep 30, 2004 #19

    kat

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    I don't know what the **** your idea of fair is, but leaving people at the mercy of brutal, genocidal dictators doesn't come under the heading of "fair" in any manner that I know of. Maybe if you compassionate *******s had gotten on your band wagon years ago and taken care of Saddam when he first started going screwy you could talk "fair", or maybe if you had screamed to continue and remove him over Gulf War 1 you might have the right to say anything about "Fair" but **** you if you think "fair" is being left to live under the brutality of a man like that.
     
  21. Oct 1, 2004 #20
    I think it is not fair that Rumsfeld went to shake hands with Saddam during the conflict with Iran, while he was actively using chemical agents against the Iranians, and encouraged him to use all means. It is not fair that American companies like Dupont consequently delivered the chemicals. I think it is not fair that the Anthrax strains available in Iraq where developed in the US. I think it is not fair that Rumsfeld then abused the 911 events to excuse an invasion in Iraq. I think it is unfair that people like you are really lowering themselves by finding any excuse for a war that deep down they KNOW is disastrous and unjust , but will defend even with lies just for the sake of not losing the argument. It is unfair that every day scores of people die because they refuse to accept foreign dominance AND because the occupying forces are uncapable of restoring sufficient conditions. I think it's unfair that people have to live in conditions that are worse than during the period of sanctions. I think it's unfair that neocons and their supporters not only did not consider the alternatives (presuming that they were genuinly interested in the wellbeing of the Iraqi people) but now that their actions prove to be disastrous close their eyes and stubbornly continue to bang their head agaisnt the wall and try to bully the world into doing the same.
     
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