Could there be a link between MS and Cat Scratch Fever?

[chemisttree]

A study conducted in San Antonio indicates that there could be a linkage. Could the cure for MS be as simple as a round of antibiotics?

http://www.ksat.com/health/18915077/detail.html

 

[JorgeLobo]

Saw no mention of MS - no a reference to the "study" being published in a peer reviewed journal.

 

[Proton Soup]

i don't think there's even a definitive diagnostic test for MS. there are things that correlate with it, but the cause is unknown.

two papers show up on a pubmed search for "bartonella multiple sclerosis", and neither supports this hypothesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=search&term=bartonella+multiple+sclerosis

 

[chemisttree]

Jeez guys! Read a little more carefully...

Barnes and his wife were beginning to lose hope when Barnes decided to enter into a study published in the Journal of Clinical Microbiology.

Barnes was among six people with varying ranges of neurological disorders who were tested for a bacterium called Bartonella, which causes cat scratch fever. Scientists were looking for a correlation between dat scratch fever and neurological disorders when they found that all the people in the study had cat scratch fever.

The study participants were treated for Bartonella with antibiotics, and within months they all showed major improvement in their neurological conditions, the study said.

While Barnes claims he's almost cured, Dr. George Crawford, an infectious disease professor at the University of Texas Health Science Center is cautiously optimistic about the study.

 

[Proton Soup]

read what more carefully? i would've bolded the "cautiously optimistic" part. MS is a spectrum of neurological symptoms that lead to a medical diagnosis (opinion). so it's not even that well-defined of a disease.

fwiw, MS also correlates to low vitamin D status, which may also correlate to susceptibility to infection, so maybe...

 

[JorgeLobo]

"jeez" - perhaps you should learn to read and not be so gullible. MS was not mentioned and throwing around the name of a journal is not a reference.

and PLEASE don't get proton started - that one has vitamin D as the panacea for everything from bad breath to Hillary's huge thighs.

 

[Proton Soup]

lol, i knew that would pull Jorge's string :rofl:

 

[Proton Soup]

oh, and if you click the link, the article actually does mention MS 3 times if you include the title.

 

[alxm]

There's no linkage here.
A man was diagnosed with MS. Subsequently, he participated in http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/46/9/2856" , where a selection of six patients with neurological symptoms and substantial animal contact (this guy was a former veterinarian) were studied and found to have various Bartonella strains, the cause of cat scratch disease, in their blood.

MS was not cured here, because the guy most likely didn't have MS to begin with. He was misdiagnosed.
(I'm not an M.D. kind of doctor but I'm really wondering here why a blood culture hadn't been done prior to this..)

 

[chemisttree]

The study indicates that only half of the patients in the study were 'cured' and they did not all have an MS diagnosis. The subject's other diagnoses (other than Bartonella) were listed as chronic subjective dizziness, epilepsy, parvovirus infection, lyme disease, babesiosis, rosacea, arthritis, depression, viral neuropathy, multiple sclerosis and debilitating migraines. The symptoms they suffered from were dizziness, seizures, fatigue, memory loss/disorientation, headaches, paralysis, blurred vision and migranes.
http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/46/9/2856?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=Breitschwerdt&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT"

Was MS misdiagnosed in John Barnes (Patient 5 in the study)? Perhaps, since the study indicated that Patient 5 (John Barnes) had symptoms for only 6 months while the definitive tests for MS usually require longer term observation. There are some http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/DiagnosticCriteria.html" that might lead to a more accurate and timely diagnosis. Absolutely nothing can be said one way or the other regarding the accuracy of the MS diagnosis for John Barnes.

The results of the study are that 3 of the six showed progressive improvement and in one case complete resolution of the disease manifestations (migranes). These patients reported the length of their illness was 1 month, 6 months and 3 years. The patient with the shortest length of illness reported complete resolution of the disease manifistations. One of the remaining 3 patients reports a decrease in her symptoms. The two remaining patients report no long term improvement with their symptoms. These three patients reported the length of their illness was 2 years, 5 years and 5 years. Interesting that the two patients that reported no improvement have suffered with their illness the longest at 5 years.

Cat scratch fever is not usually associated with most of the symptoms listed in the study although fatigue is a symptom. The point of the OP is that there could be a linkage between cat scratch fever and MS or at least a diagnosis of MS. What remains to be seen is the prevalence of cat scratch fever in those patients that have a diagnosis of MS.

 

[alxm]

Absolutely nothing can be said one way or the other regarding the accuracy of the MS diagnosis for John Barnes.

Well I wouldn't say that. Obviously if he makes a full recovery, or as full a recovery as can be made if there's permanent damage, then he didn't have MS since antibiotics don't cure MS. (whether or not studies have been done I think that's safe to say; it's not as if MS patients don't get infections)

Cat scratch fever is not usually associated with most of the symptoms listed in the study although fatigue is a symptom.

Well, that would seemingly be the point - that perhaps it can have neurological symptoms. I'd agree with their conclusion that further study would seem warranted.

The point of the OP is that there could be a linkage between cat scratch fever and MS or at least a diagnosis of MS.

I'd wager the latter given what I know about it. I suspect there's a small but significant group of people with an MS diagnosis who in fact have other, rarer, conditions which haven't been characterized yet. The same would go for Lupus and other such difficult-to-diagnose, often auto-immune problems.

 

[chemisttree]

We shouldn't forget that the disease of MS is reflective of the symptoms. There is no known cause for MS so saying that if treatment with antibiotics cures the 'disease' (really a collection of symptoms and scleroses) then the patient was wrongly diagnosed with MS is not quite true.

Treatment with antibiotics doesn't mean that the organism has been eliminated from the system. You will note the low blood titer of the bacteria in the related papers authored by Dr. B. A special test to amplify the organism had to be developed to see it by PCR! It suggests the disease state could be caused by a chronic, low level of the organism.

 

[MacKintosh]

Hi, Everyone - My first post, so please bear with me. I'm actually here because I was searching for that patient, the veterinarian John Barnes, from the bartonella study and your site is one of the search results.

The recently discovered bacteria chlamydia pneumoniae has been implicated in MS as well as a whole series of diseases previously thought to be 'autoimmune' (rheumatoid arthritis, chronic fatigue, rosacea, irritable bowel and others). Having been diagnosed with MS (cat scratch fever was ruled out) in August of 2005, I have undergone treatment with a simple antibiotic cocktail of generics (no money to made there!) for the past three years. Cpn is a 'stealth bacteria' (resides inside the cells and isn't easily recognized by the immune system) that has three life-phases, which is why a specific group of meds is required: doxycycline, azithromycin and metronidazole is what I used.

The patent was obtained (and released publicly for humanitarian purposes) by researchers at Vanderbilt University (Drs. Sriram and Stratton), then was modified by British microbiologist Dr. David Wheldon, who used it to stall and reverse his wife's progressive MS (her EDSS at that time was eight). Wheldon has collaborated with both of the original doctors for several years now.

More research than you want to see is posted over on cpnhelp.org, which is a simple, patient-driven, website focused on the bacteria and its treatment and eradication. And, yes, sorry, we're kind of big on Vitamin D3 over there, too (she said sheepishly, having read a few D comments here...).

I'm still on my hunt to locate John Barnes, DVM, so I must go now, but please know there is a growing rumble as to cpn being a huge 'factor', if not 'cause', in MS. These days, I'd have to say I am a cpn patient, not an MS patient (and not much of a patient any more; I'm close to finishing my protocol and would say I'm 98% plus recovered).

Best wishes...

 

[chemisttree]

Welcome to the Forum MacKintosh! Great first post...

I'm very glad that you have seen significant recovery. Here's hoping that you remain symptom free.

The http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?id=4090&t=CFIDS_FM" is gaining a following it seems.

 

[MacKintosh]

Chemisttree, Thanks for the kind words and most especially for the link. I'm surprised I haven't seen that one, but will add it to the info over on cpnhelp.

One has to wonder how many other (as yet) unidentified bugs exist, and contribute to the catalogue of human diseases. I just got lucky, as John Barnes did, with a fortuitous mix of information and clever physicians.

 

[JorgeLobo]

This is so much BS. The linkage has not been demonstrated and the site offered by chem is primarily opinion, not data. That said, I'm glad mac is better following treatment.

One can wonder at a lot of things. Those who know microbiology, understand we've cultured < 5% probably less than 1% of the bugs in our world and that there are microbial than human cells in and on our bodies. So disease may be as much a bug lost as a bug added. Please recall MS is a syndrome - a collection of symptoms - and there's no reason to presume that the same set of symptoms would have but one etiology.

btw proton - thanks for holding off.

 

[chemisttree]

When the linkage is demonstrated, I might start a thread with the title, "There IS a link between MS and Cat Scratch Fever!"

 

[MacKintosh]

Funny, but that's how I describe my 'MS'. In my view, cpn infection results in different manifestations in different people, dependent on environment and genetic make-up. Therefore, it (and probably other 'bugs') results in what is called MS in one person and what is called chronic fatigue, or rheumatoid arthritis, in another. Fortunately, the treatment has good results (generally, but not universally) in a variety of these manifestations.

 

[mostnumbers]

A study conducted in San Antonio indicates that there could be a linkage. Could the cure for MS be as simple as a round of antibiotics?

http://www.ksat.com/health/18915077/detail.html

I had been told this story a few days ago and decided to google for it. What I was told and what the report contained were considerably different. What I was told was this:

A cure for MS has been discovered; it involves an injection of the bacteria that causes cat scratch fever. You won't be able to find anything on this 'cause the the "backers" of this secret research don't want it known until the appropriate patents are obtained. A local TV station broadcast a story about it and the "backers" were able to make the station cease any future broadcasts of the story.

Well, my google search turned up your post which, of course, had the link to the TV station's news archives. The person that told me of this "newly discovered" cure was somewhat confused, huh?

I was diagnosed with MS in 1983, and for years I have heard tons of "newly discovered cures" for MS. I learned to be more dismissive of those claims that curious. But since I was told this "discovery" was in San Antonio, Texas, I decided to look. You see, I have lived in San Antonio since 1983.

Now that I have heard a more accurate version of the story, let me pass along a little of what I have heard all these years. Some success has been claimed in using the antibiotic used here, but I have not looked any further.

Mostnumbers

 

[turbo]

One doctor, one study, suggests that an iron build-up could cause an elevated production of free radicals, and that opening restrictions in the veins leading blood away from the brain might alleviate some symptoms, and perhaps slow the progression of the disease.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091120/W5_liberation_091121/20091121

 

[mostnumbers]

One doctor, one study, suggests that an iron build-up could cause an elevated production of free radicals, and that opening restrictions in the veins leading blood away from the brain might alleviate some symptoms, and perhaps slow the progression of the disease.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091120/W5_liberation_091121/20091121

Yes, turbo-1, I'm aware of that. Very interesting, very novel. I await some peer review and comments from others.

mostnumbers

 

[algis.j]

See https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=358270

 

[Jbarnes1960]

As the brother of Dr. John Barnes, DVM (830-278-4441, his clinic) I can assure you that John has MS. It started when he noticed he was dropping his tools during surgery and then got so bad that he could hardly walk and couldn't even play golf riding it a cart. After the prescribed treatment of inexpensive antibiotics over a very long period of time, the Bartonella is finally out of his blood. His recovery is nothing short of amazing.

I read a letter from another Vet who has Fibromialga and was in constant pain. John got her blood tested and she too had Bartonella in her blood and after treatment is doing MUCH better and can run again. She said prior to the treatment "it just killed her to just take a shower".

John doesn't know for sure if he has been "cured" or not from his MS, but he will tell you that he is sure that there is some kind of link between Bartonella and nervous system diseases yet undiscovered.

 

[chemisttree]

Thats great news! I'm glad to hear that John as seen some relief. I contacted the study author regarding fibromialga and he said that it was an interesting possibility by that at the time he was focusing on the MS side of the issue. Good news about your friend as well.

 

[adrenaline]

Lyme disease can cause neurodegenerative-like diseases so I don't see why bartonella can't. The two many times coinfect the same person, and the antibiotics used to treat bartonella can also treat lyme...I don't see where they did not rule this out...

 

[hypatia]

That is good news, MS is such a tenacious disease. Any thing that can stop or delay the development of symptoms is so important. I hope your bother continues to do well.

 

[Moonbear]

John doesn't know for sure if he has been "cured" or not from his MS, but he will tell you that he is sure that there is some kind of link between Bartonella and nervous system diseases yet undiscovered.

There's a growing body of literature regarding various neuropathies associated with Bartonella infection. The neuropathies caused by bartonella recover following antibiotic treatment of the infection.

MS does not get better with antibiotic treatment. If it did, hardly anyone would have MS. One of the common treatments of MS involves immunosuppressants, which leave the patients vulnerable to infections of many kinds, so they do end up taking antibiotics frequently.

Of course, you might therefore see higher incidents of things like bartonella infection among MS patients, not as a causative factor, but because of the immunosupression that makes them more susceptible to the infection. And, if bartonella also has neurological symptoms, it seems reasonable that in someone previously diagnosed with MS that one could mistake the symptoms as progression of MS and an increase in severity of that condition rather than a secondary infection.

MS is also a slowly progressive disease, while neurological symptoms associated with an infection like bartonella seem to be very rapid onset.

Here's just one case report of a neuropathy of the facial nerve associated with bartonella infection.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/101/5/e13

It's certainly not the typical presentation of bartonella infection, but there seem to be enough case reports to suggest it is an atypical presentation.