Critique Logic: Analyzing the Impact of Gravity as a Particle or Wave

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In summary, the two conclusions are that if the graviton existed, it would be met and canceled by gravitons within the gravity field, and that all mass and most energy would not escape a black hole.
  • #1
jdlech
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Years ago, I had the opportunity to have a lot of time on my hands. I filled a notebook with what most would call simple mathematics. Now I'm no genius, but the math led me to make two basic conclusions.
Here's what I wrote about the first conclusion.
If the graviton existed, then would'nt objects in an accelerating frame produce gravitons by virtue of the equivalence principle?
If an atom is falling freely in a gravity field, would'nt that mean every graviton it produces must be exactly met and canceled by a graviton within the gravity field? Is'nt gravity supposed to be cumulative?
If you sat in a ferris wheel in space (no gravity field) that was rotating at a constant speed, would'nt the equivalence principle apply to the centrifugal force even though there is no accelleration?
At what level does the equivalence principle apply?
Molecular - yes
Atomic - yes
Sub-atomic - ?
Quantom - ?

If we think of a neutron star as a screen through which all particles must pass in order to escape. That is, the space between the atoms is the holes in the screen. For the sake of argument, let's think of the star as a hollow object with a screen across the surface, representing the atoms and the space (the material of the screen and the holes in it repectively). If gravity was a particle, it must be exceedingly small because not just some gravitons pass through; all gravitons pass through the screen.
Now think of a black hole as a screen with an ever decreasing hole size. Mathematically, all gravitons escape to affect the surrounding space no matter how fine the screen.
This leads me to think that all gravitons would pass through even if the screen became solid (no holes left for gravitons to pass through yet all gravitons would still pass through). If they do not escape, then the only gravity to affect the curviture of the surrounding space would be the ones created at the surface of the neutron star/black hole.
Unless, of course, one can show that neutrons are 99.99999% empty space and are not compressible by gravity. Otherwise, they would collapse into a black hole, thus closing the holes in the screen and preventing gravitons from escape.
The alternative is to assume that gravity is not a particle at all. Which would make it the only true force of the four fundamental forces. Quantom theory, and the GUT describe the electromagnetic, strong, and the weak nuclear forces as particles adequately enough to assume it correctness.
However; no theory that assumes gravity as a particle works, therefore it is logical to assume that gravity is not a particle until such time as new information indicates otherwise.​

Now as I said, I'm no genius, and I'm not trying to promote some personal wacko theories. I admit, I'm probably wrong (as we all are). But I would like to hear some honest critique of the logic. The conclusion also indicates that the particle/wave duality does not apply to gravity. And since gravity would be the physical manifastation of a particle-less wave, it opens up the possibility (albeit fantastic) of a waveless particle.

The other conclusion is a bit more wacked out. Using a single logical assumption, I think I was able to derive a measurement for n+1 when given an n dimensional object. In other words, I was able to derive information about an unseen dimention simply by using geometry and trig. I applied it to the accelleration formula and ended up with mass in motion=time. Kinda wacked, most likely wrong, but if anyone is interested in seeing it, let me know. My command of math is limited, so my work is rather simplistic. Therefore I probably got it wrong.

Which brings me to a question that I hope someone can answer. If all mass and most energy cannot escape a black hole with the exception of quantom "leakage", would not the energy build up within eventually tear up most forms of matter. Would'nt the heat (entropy) be so intense that matter would be reduced down to sub atomic particles and below thereby eliminating most mass, and vis-a-vis most gravity, therby destroying the black hole? Does gravity overcome even entropy?
 
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  • #2
Or perhaps it merely reaches a balancing point?

And perhaps they do disappear after a while, I don't think we truly know how long they last.
 
  • #3
Current theories suggest a very long but not infinite length of time. They do melt away due to quantom tunnelling, but it would take billions or trillions of years.

But has anyone insterted entropy into the equations? Certainly squeezing that much mass and energy into a small space would produce a huge amount of entropy. But would the entropy convert the mass into energy?

Yes, there would be a point of equilibrium; that would depend upon how much mass is entering into the system. It's very much like the equilibrium between gravity and explosive fusion in a star except for the insertion of an inconsistent amount of extra mass and energy into the system.

That I can understand. Now, does anyone have any physical evidence that gravity is a particle?
 
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  • #4
5 days, no reply.

Am I to take this to mean there is no solid evidence that gravity is a particle?

How about the question of the equivalence principle? Does it apply on the subatomic or quantom level?
 
  • #5
Black hole

"Current theories suggest a very long but not infinite length of time. They do melt away due to quantom tunnelling, but it would take billions or trillions of years."

I thought the evaporation was due to the creation of particle anti-particle pairs near the horizon of a black hole with some particles falling into the black hole before it could annihilate with it's counterpart thus allowing the other half of the pair to escape. I think this is the gist of Hawking's theory after whom the escaping particles are named; Hawking radiation. - As you say it is a very slow process. The total lifetime of a black hole of M solar masses = 10^71 M^3 seconds.
Art
 
  • #6
Hmm... I stand corrected. That is still a very long time.
If there is no evidence to show that gravity is a particle, why are we trying to come up with a quantom theory of gravity?
Why not just treat it as a field, or as an extra dimension?

BTW, anyone have a problem with the logic when I apply the second law of thermodynamics to black holes? Should'nt entropy take over once gravity starts converting mass into energy? How much can you heat mass before it starts flying apart on a quantom level?
 
  • #7
BH do have entropy

Stephen Hawking and Jacob Bekenstein have proven theorems that the entropy of a black hole is proportional to the area of it's event horizon. And so the second law of thermodynamics is adhered to.
Art
 

FAQ: Critique Logic: Analyzing the Impact of Gravity as a Particle or Wave

1. What is the purpose of studying the impact of gravity as a particle or wave?

The purpose of studying the impact of gravity as a particle or wave is to gain a better understanding of the fundamental forces that govern our universe. By analyzing the properties of gravity as both a particle and a wave, we can potentially uncover new insights and theories about the nature of gravity and its effects on matter.

2. How does the concept of gravity as a particle differ from gravity as a wave?

Gravity as a particle is described by the theory of general relativity, which explains gravity as a distortion of spacetime caused by the mass and energy of objects. On the other hand, gravity as a wave is described by the theory of quantum mechanics, which suggests that gravity can also be transmitted as a wave-like particle called a graviton. The main difference between the two is their underlying principles and the scales at which they operate.

3. What are some potential implications of gravity being a particle or a wave?

One potential implication is that if gravity is a particle, it could help us better understand how gravity interacts with other particles and forces in the universe. This could potentially lead to advancements in fields such as particle physics and quantum gravity. If gravity is a wave, it could provide evidence for the existence of gravitons and open up new possibilities for studying the nature of gravity at a quantum level.

4. How do scientists study the impact of gravity as a particle or wave?

Scientists study the impact of gravity as a particle or wave through a combination of theoretical and experimental methods. Theoretical physicists use mathematical models and simulations to explore the properties and behaviors of gravity, while experimental physicists conduct experiments using advanced technologies such as particle accelerators and gravitational wave detectors to test these theories and gather data.

5. What are some current theories or findings about the impact of gravity as a particle or wave?

One current theory is loop quantum gravity, which suggests that gravity may be a result of the interactions between tiny units of space called loops. Another theory is string theory, which proposes that gravity, along with the other fundamental forces, is a manifestation of vibrating strings in higher dimensions. Recent findings also include the detection of gravitational waves, which provide evidence for the existence of gravitational waves and support the idea that gravity can be transmitted as a wave.

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