Dan Rather / CBS using forged Bush related National Guard documents?

[Tigers2B1]

I suppose the bigger question is, if forgeries, from where did these documents come? If there is any direct connection to the Kerry camp I'd speculate that he's finished. These documents were 'aged' so, if they are forgeries, there is certain intent here to mislead these as originals. CBS stands by their story and the authenticity of these documents. Note that ABC has already indicated that their experts have indicated that these documents are likely forgeries. From the ABC site -

…Marjorie Connell — widow of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the reported author of memos suggesting that Bush did not meet the standards for the Texas Air National Guard — questioned whether the documents were real.

"The wording in these documents is very suspect to me," she told ABC News Radio in an exclusive phone interview from her Texas home. She added that she "just can't believe these are his words."

First reported by CBS' 60 Minutes, the memos allegedly were found in Killian's personal files. But his family members say they doubt he ever made such documents, let alone kept them.

Connell said Killian did not type, …

The link for those who would like to read the entire article.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909-1.html

This next article is at the Weekly Standard web sie (linked below) and offers the opinions of a number of outside experts - and their rationales.

Is It a Hoax?

Experts weigh in on the 60 Minutes documents. Says one: "I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but . . . I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s."

by Stephen F. Hayes

09/09/2004 7:20:00 PM

DOCUMENTS CITED Wednesday by 60 Minutes in a widely-publicized expose of George W. Bush's National Guard Service are very likely forgeries, according to several experts on document authenticity and typography. The documents--four memos from Killian to himself or his files written in 1972 and 1973--appear to indicate that Bush refused or ignored orders to have a physical exam required to continue flying. CBS News anchor Dan Rather reported the segment and sourced the documents this way: "60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file," he said. The 60 Minutes story served as the basis for follow-up news reports for dozens of news organizations across the country. …

"These sure look like forgeries," says William Flynn, a forensic document expert widely considered the nation's top analyst of computer-generated documents. Flynn looked at copies of the documents posted on the CBS News website (here, here, here, and here). Flynn says, "I would say it looks very likely that these documents could not have existed" in the early 1970s, when they were allegedly written.
Several other experts agree….

http://weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=4596&R=9FCD2F192

 

[Tigers2B1]

A link to the blog POWERLINEBLOG. I understand this was the blog that ‘broke’ this story.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php

 

[JohnDubYa]

"60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file"

WE ARE TOLD?

How can that possibly be considred credible investigative journalism?

More from the article:

The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.
The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.
The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.
The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.
The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.

You have got to be kidding me. Lesson to forger: Use Courier! At least you may withstand scrutiny past a casual glance.

My bet: This was all done by some kid and handed to a goofball journalist too stupid to check the document out before reporting about it.

 

[Tigers2B1]

<cue for the Right to come in and talk about suspicious timing>

? You mean the left?? It really doesdn't matter either wway however -- because this is what it is.

Note: These documents, the ones used by 60 minutes and CBS were used to incriminate Bush. These are the documents that may be forged (and it is beginning to look like in fact they were forged.) IF there is a connection between these (probably) forged documents and the Kerry camp than all hell is going to break loose.

 

[russ_watters]

I'd been ignoring this issue because I figured it was just more of the same baseless innuendo about mabye he was/mabye he wasn't awol, but wow. This could be big.

So far no evidence, though, about where this came from, so no reason to pin it on Kerry. I don't consider him to be very bright, but I have a hard time believing he'd be this stupid - I'd more likely expect such a thing from one of his private backers. MoveOn.org, for example.

 

[JohnDubYa]

I read the Blog, and the stupid fool who forged the document appeared to have used MS Word on a computer. The memo features kerning. KERNING! On a typewriter?

Here's more:

UPDATE 11: CBS is sticking to its story. It's not entirely clear which story, however. Initially, CBS spokeswoman Kelli Edwards said:

As is standard practice at CBS News, each of the documents broadcast on '60 Minutes' was thoroughly investigated by independent experts, and we are convinced of their authenticity.

Later, however, Ms. Edwards sent out an email that appeared to revise the nature of the "authentication" process:

CBS verified the authenticity of the documents by talking to individuals who had seen the documents at the time they were written. These individuals were close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian and confirm that the documents reflect his opinions at the time the documents were written.

So what CBS is now saying is not that the documents are authentic, but that the opinions they express are authentic, based on the hearsay reports of anonymous persons alleged to be close associates of Col. Killian, who recall his views of thirty-two years ago. This is what passes for "authentication" in the mainstream media.

CBS had better apologize before it is too late. A simple scan with a naked eyeball would have revealed the forgery. In fact, the irresponsibility displayed by CBS makes me wonder if they aren't open to lawsuit.

 

[Tigers2B1]

...So far no evidence, though, about where this came from, so no reason to pin it on Kerry. I don't consider him to be very bright, but I have a hard time believing he'd be this stupid - I'd more likely expect such a thing from one of his private backers. MoveOn.org, for example.

You're right but this quote from the American Spectator doesn't help.

...More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.

The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer." According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

"More than a couple people heard about the papers," says the DNC staffer. "I've heard that they ended up with the Kerry campaign, for them to decide to how to proceed, and presumably they were handed over to 60 Minutes, which used them the other night. But I know this much. When there was discussion here, there were doubts raised about their authenticity."

The concerns arose from the sourcing. "It wasn't clear that our source for the documents would have had access to them. Our person couldn't confirm from what file, from what original source they came from."

BOLDING Mine -

 

[kat]

A link to the blog POWERLINEBLOG. I understand this was the blog that ‘broke’ this story.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php

Just FYI this story actually broke at freerepublic.com
That's where Powerlineblog got it's lead on the story.

 

[Gokul43201]

? You mean the left?? It really doesdn't matter either wway however -- because this is what it is.

No, I just screwed up. Didn't read fully before blurting...hence the delete, but you were too fast for me.

 

[JohnDubYa]

On Hannity's show, the son of the Lt. Col. claims that not only was he contacted by CBS before the story broke, they ignored his testimony when they found out that he wouldn't back the story. He also claims his mother was contacted in a similar fashion.

If true (and this is direct testimony), then CBS has a bigger credibilty problem than I thought.

 

[wakarusajack]

Paper size

I was in military duiring this time and we used different size paper in the typewriters, 8 x 10.5 I think. Any word on the size of paper these are written on?

 

[member 5645]

I've been following this else where:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12526_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forged

Original
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug-18-1973-memo.gif

And open up MS word...ta da!
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug181973memo-word.gif

The spacing is not just similar—it is identical in every respect

And continue forth:

Get your 25,000 dollars if you can type this memo on a machine available in 1972
http://defeatjohnjohn.com/pageone.htm

For the people all giddy about "existing" personnell files:
http://defeatjohnjohn.com/djj1/proofb.gif



Click the links, plenty more fodder :)

 

[Robert Zaleski]

Does anyone know if a Federal law has been violated, if these memos prove to be bogus? Could we be witnessing the opening scene in the defrocking of St. Danny of CBS.

 

[Tigers2B1]

From the Boston Globe.

The newspaper said that, after being told by CBS that retired Major General Bobby W. Hodges would vouch for the documents, it contacted Hodges Friday evening only to find that Hodges believes the documents are inauthentic...

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/12/new_doubt_cast_on_guard_documents/


Please take special note of this quote from Drudge

Retired Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, who was cited by a senior CBS official on Thursday as the network's "trump card" in verifying the documents, said in an interview that he was "misled" by CBS and believed the documents to be forgeries.

Hodges said that he was read only excerpts of the documents and never saw the documents

http://www.drudgereport.com/

Then there are questions about the substance found in the memos themselves – never mind they seem to have been done in WORD.

The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationalpolitics/2002032742_bushguard11.html


And recall, the typewriter used during the 70s that produced this memo will have to have ALL of the absolute state of the art features mentioned – all in one package. Not only that but those features would have had to have the culminating result of looking exactly like an MS WORD document AND they would have had to have been used by a guy who couldn’t even type.

I’m still waiting for CBS to reveal the source of these documents.

 

[LURCH]

So far no evidence, though, about where this came from, so no reason to pin it on Kerry.

Yes, I would consider it very premature to put this on Kerry or even his supporters. It does look a lot like retaliation for the "swiftboat Vets" business, but it might not be. It might even be a ploy by the right to discredit the left. Some conservative may have written the documents so the liberals would produce them and bring about the ridicule they now face.

But even if that is the case, and this is a conservative plot to expose the questionable practices of the left, and show that the media has a liberal bias, it has succeeded. The DNC got these obvious forgeries and rushed them to the media without even giving them a casual glance to see that they are fake. The media put the docs on primetime with similar disregard. I can't imagine "60 Minutes" would have put out a story like this without bothering to verify their sources if the story were about Kerry.

 

[FaverWillets]

From the Boston Globe.



http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/12/new_doubt_cast_on_guard_documents/


Please take special note of this quote from Drudge



http://www.drudgereport.com/

Then there are questions about the substance found in the memos themselves – never mind they seem to have been done in WORD.



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationalpolitics/2002032742_bushguard11.html


And recall, the typewriter used during the 70s that produced this memo will have to have ALL of the absolute state of the art features mentioned – all in one package. Not only that but those features would have had to have the culminating result of looking exactly like an MS WORD document AND they would have had to have been used by a guy who couldn’t even type.

I’m still waiting for CBS to reveal the source of these documents.

The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows...

Kinda smacks of those documents Bush and Powell submitted to the UN as PROOF of Iraq's WMD development programmes, eh? The signatory of that document had been retired from his position for a decade! So, what's your beef?

 

[Tigers2B1]

Note that every other typed document Killian creates during his career is from a different typewriter. Only when Killian decides that he is going to be critical of Bush does he go into his closet and bring out this 'Typewriter On Steroids' (which has yet to surface) -- which he then uses to type the six documents critical of Bush. Too bad Killian isn't here to confirm that.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Kinda smacks of those documents Bush and Powell submitted to the UN as PROOF of Iraq's WMD development programmes, eh? The signatory of that document had been retired from his position for a decade! So, what's your beef?

You have absolutely nothing to add concerning the Killian documents FaverWillets? So instead you post an off-topic bash of Bush. Mighty brave of you.

Now concerning your attempt to change the subject of the thread ---- please start your Bush bashing thread elsewhere on the board --- or, heck, pick one of the numerous Bush bashing threads already in existence. I'll even come over and take a look and if your allegation is credibly supported, I'll probably respond. Otherwise, if you actually have something of substance to add to THIS subject, please feel free.

 

[Robert Zaleski]

The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows...

Kinda smacks of those documents Bush and Powell submitted to the UN as PROOF of Iraq's WMD development programmes, eh? The signatory of that document had been retired from his position for a decade! So, what's your beef?

The difference is the CBS memos are suspect frauds, while the Powell documents are bona fide.

 

[FaverWillets]

The difference is the CBS memos are suspect frauds, while the Powell documents are bona fide.

It sounds like we're both on the same side. Bush is a slug, he's always been a slug, and he's always going to be a slug.

 

[FaverWillets]

You have absolutely nothing to add concerning the Killian documents FaverWillets? So instead you post an off-topic bash of Bush. Mighty brave of you.

Now concerning your attempt to change the subject of the thread ---- please start your Bush bashing thread elsewhere on the board --- or, heck, pick one of the numerous Bush bashing threads already in existence. I'll even come over and take a look and if your allegation is credibly supported, I'll probably respond. Otherwise, if you actually have something of substance to add to THIS subject, please feel free.

Bush's record, his entire adult life, has been one of getting off on his father's name. And, why would I care if YOU respond to me or not? Who are you anyway?

 

[russ_watters]

I can't imagine "60 Minutes" would have put out a story like this without bothering to verify their sources if the story were about Kerry.

I've always liked "60 Minutes" and this (apparent) disregard for journalistic ethics (no pun intended) is surprising to me.

The DNC got these obvious forgeries and rushed them to the media without even giving them a casual glance to see that they are fake.

Now that's just plain stupid. What kind of two-bit campaign is Kerry running? The first question any campaign personnel should ask themselves before taking any action is "can this blow up in my face?" It seems like they just aren't thinking about it.

Does anyone know if a Federal law has been violated, if these memos prove to be bogus? Could we be witnessing the opening scene in the defrocking of St. Danny of CBS.

Forgery is a federal crime, afaik, as is impersonating a military officer. Even if its proven to a legal certainty that these are forgeries, though, I'd be surprised if anyone gets prosecuted.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Bush's record, his entire adult life, has been one of getting off on his father's name. And, why would I care if YOU respond to me or not? Who are you anyway?

:Sigh: - I'm nobody FaverWillets. And if you don't want a response from me - than don’t respond to my posts. But that's really not what I'm talking about ---

Look, assume for a moment that you start a thread – say about the history of terrorism or about this year’s apple crop. I come in and – for reasons known only to me – start calling Kerry a sphinter tot, explode on his illegitimate daughters, and then question his marriage into the Heinz family. People might question my motives and worse – might take up those issues and drown this one. SO ---- if you just have to purge about Bush just please do it elsewhere. I started this thread to talk about the Killian documents – not someone's life-long interest in corn snakes, or the social behavior of honeybees, or how long Bush has been a "slug." Just consider this - when people insist on hijacking threads, making each just another pit stop, another drive-by post, and another opportunity to call Bush a jackbooted thug, it makes the thread difficult to read, and therefore discuss.

 

[LURCH]

I've always liked "60 Minutes" and this (apparent) disregard for journalistic ethics (no pun intended) is surprising to me.

I would consider them an excellent source of information for all topics other than political. They do appear to have a definite bias in that area.

 

[russ_watters]

It appears that the media is letting this one die. I'm a little surprised since there is nothing a news station loves more than catching another one with their pants down.

 

[kat]

Russ- I'm not sure I'd write it off just yet. According to newsmap there are still over 128 news articles on the subject today. Not including the 300+ articles in regards to comedians and politics which also mentions Rathers forgeries.

 

[Tigers2B1]

For your viewing pleasure - here are some of the alleged "Guard documents" produced by CBS for those who want to view them. Note that these are in .pdf format.

For the most obvious - note the superscripted "th" in item two at this first link. The proportional spacing and the New Roman script you'll have to eyeball unless you have the time to create it in MS WORD, bring it to the right size and then superimpose.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay19.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf


For another example of the raised "th" go to this (below) USATODAY site. See the third page, row two and see the words "Pilot Trainee, 111th Fighter Sq." Note that within this same document none of the other "th" are raised or small. Nineteen .pdf pages here.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/9-Miscellaneous.pdf

 

[FaverWillets]

For your viewing pleasure - here are some of the alleged "Guard documents" produced by CBS for those who want to view them. Note that these are in .pdf format.

For the most obvious - note the superscripted "th" in item two at this first link. The proportional spacing and the New Roman script you'll have to eyeball unless you have the time to create it in MS WORD, bring it to the right size and then superimpose.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay19.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf


For another example of the raised "th" go to this (below) USATODAY site. See the third page, row two and see the words "Pilot Trainee, 111th Fighter Sq." Note that within this same document none of the other "th" are raised or small. Nineteen .pdf pages here.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/9-Miscellaneous.pdf

Looking at page 2 of the .pdf documents I see that more than one font is used. "...70 May 26, then underneath it, next line 71 May 26...different typewriters...different fonts. Some typewriters back then did superscripting, most did not. I have used many typewriters in my time, and wonder if you gentlemen have too? What I am seeing is not suspect... do you have other areas of those documents you think are worthy of a closer look?

How is it that these documents were reported as "accidentally destroyed" then they appear? People have come forward on both sides to say they didn't see George when he should have reported for duty, others say they did, but mostly, like the Swift Boat group it seems this story too is filled with many inconsistensies. For myself, these impressions on those reports look like bonafide typewriter impressions... the IBM ball selectric model used interchangable ball heads (fonts).

 

[russ_watters]

How is it that these documents were reported as "accidentally destroyed" then they appear?

These documents in particular are said to have come from a personal collection of the officer who wrote them - but the source is anonymous and no one is substantiating that.

Russ- I'm not sure I'd write it off just yet. According to newsmap there are still over 128 news articles on the subject today. Not including the 300+ articles in regards to comedians and politics which also mentions Rathers forgeries.

I guess we'll see, kat. In any case, unless the Kerry campaign chooses to reveal info about the source of these memos, there is little chance they'll ever be shown conclusively forged or authentic.

 

[Tigers2B1]

...What I am seeing is not suspect... do you have other areas of those documents you think are worthy of a closer look?...

Best ask CBS because these aren't documents in my possession. And CBS refuses to produce the source. Did you do the MS WORD / .pdf document overlay when reaching your conclusion or just eyeball? Anyway, IF you are an expert in the field, call CBS, they need one or two experts to advocate their position – especially since after the recent expert exodus. Especially since Killian, who couldn’t type, had to use a typewrittter during the 70s that produced documents that look exactly like MS WORD - but ONLY when he was critical of Bush and then switched to a 1970s - conventional typewriter for other documents. So, I’m assuming that it is your position than that Killian selectively used this extremely high end typewriter --and 'other' expert opinion notwithstanding -- that you can show us support for those conclusions. A 1972 typewriter, that by mere unlucky coincidence, includes ALL of the mentioned software functions of a MS WORD document ---

The latest from MSNBC concerning expert opinion.

The lead expert retained by CBS News to examine disputed memos from President Bush's former squadron commander in the National Guard said yesterday that he examined only the late officer's signature and made no attempt to authenticate the documents themselves….

The analysis shows that half a dozen Killian memos released earlier by the military were written with a standard typewriter using different formatting techniques from those characteristic of computer-generated documents. CBS's Killian memos bear numerous signs that are more consistent with modern-day word-processing programs, particularly Microsoft Word.

"I am personally 100 percent sure that they are fake," said Joseph M. Newcomer, author of several books on Windows programming, who worked on electronic typesetting techniques in the early 1970s. Newcomer said he had produced virtually exact replicas of the CBS documents using Microsoft Word formatting and the Times New Roman font.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5993683/

 

[maps]

oxymoron

I've always liked "60 Minutes" and this (apparent) disregard for journalistic ethics (no pun intended) is surprising to me. Now that's just plain stupid.

I would suggest that the use of the words "journalistic ethics" in conjunction with CBS's "60 Minutes" program is really an oxymoron.

 

[JohnDubYa]

The lack of journalistic ethics doesn't surprise me. The rank idiocy does.

 

[russ_watters]

I would suggest that the use of the words "journalistic ethics" in conjunction with CBS's "60 Minutes" program is really an oxymoron.

That's why I said "no pun intended." Supposedly, there is such a thing, but its rarely actually followed if it gets in the way of other goals.

The lack of journalistic ethics doesn't surprise me. The rank idiocy does.

Ehh, I am a little surprised (or perhaps I just combine the two).

 

[Tigers2B1]

Well, to be fair, the "documents might be authentic" advocates are really making their best efforts. Grasping at eachh and every possibility. So --- there seems to be one model of 1972 vintage typewriter that MIGHT have had the wherewithal to have typed the “Killian documents” – MAYBE - but probably not. For argument's sake let's assume it did. Let the straw stay for the moment. The IBM Composer is the typewriter in question. Will the IBM Composer save Dan Rather? Well, first let's note that the Composer had a $4,000 price tag (in 1970 dollars), the price of a nice, new 1972 automobile. However Mrs. Knox, Col Killian's secretary is on the record as saying that she used a conventional, standard issue typewriter during that period and that she typed Col Killian's documents. She didn't use this $4,000 typewriter. So, it seems, for the IBM Composer to be the culprit, the deceased Col Killian would have had to use the Composer --- all out of sight. How he got this typewriter and why, since he couldn't type - is left for us to figure out. The article below also points out that it is not reasonable to conclude that a small National Guard Office needed, nor could they could justify a $4,000 typewriter in 1972. However -- IF that National Guard office did have one of these IBM Composer typewriters and Killian used it only when typing memos critical of Bush – ($800 a memo? – you do the math) it would have been, not only an expensive endeavor, but also a labor-intensive job with all the measuring and type-ball changes involved. Questions of why he would do it that way and why the office would have had such a machine (a machine which was unknown to Mrs. Knox, Col Killian’s secretary at the time) ALL remains a mystery. See the quotes below --

…The precisely centered text, the superscript "th" and the proportionally spaced Times New Roman font are all obvious tip-offs. Further analysis of word wrapping and line spacing reveals a perfect match. Anyone using Microsoft Word's default settings and a copier for "aging"can reproduce the memos exactly. A high-resolution comparison can be viewed at mysite.verizon.net/vze6vxcr.

Did a typewriter exist that could mimic these features? Some suggest that an IBM Selectric Composer could have been used, theoretically, to type the memos. But with a $4,000 price tag, it's unlikely that a small National Guard office would have had one. Assuming it did, creating the memos would have involved laborious manual procedures, such as detailed measuring and type-ball changing -- a dubious proposition for a man whose widow says he couldn't type.

Greg Swann, writes that "I did work on the IBM Selectric Composer in the '70s, both the stand-alone model and the magnetic tape version. ... [N]ot even an experienced Selectric Composer operator could have produced those memos, nor a Linotype compositor, nor any other typographer using '70s-epoch equipment. This is not subject to debate by rational men. The Killian memos are forgeries."

http://www.cornellsun.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/09/14/41465b214495d

IMHO, CBS loses more credibility with each day they refuse to produce the source(s) of these documents.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Here is a funny response to the article:

Dan Rather is a saint. I understand he will soon release the Killian memos in their original PowerPoint presentation form.

BTW, has anyone bothered to check to see if there really was a P.O. Box 34567 in Houston in 1972?

If you have, call me at my home number (123)456-7890