Is Florida's Stand Your Ground Law a Dangerous Step Backward?

[pattylou]

This is insane.

Why do we think we're civilised, again?

TALLAHASSEE -- Floridians no longer have to try to avoid or escape an assailant before killing such an assailant to protect themselves.

A new law takes effect today that has drawn national attention. And it has roots in Pensacola.

It's called the "stand your ground" law. It was passed by the Legislature in April -- at the behest of the National Rifle Association -- and signed by Gov. Jeb Bush the same month.

The new law provides immunity to those who use deadly force in defense of life and limb, eliminating a previous requirement that a person first attempt to flee a threat before taking a life.

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051001/NEWS01/510010319/1006

Also, a distinction between this and an older law ( that says you can kill an intruder into your home) is that if a person 'threatens' you in your personal space --- regardless of what property you are on - you now have legal right to kill them.

I'd like to know how you demonstrate after the fact that the person was really threatening you.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is one issue where I side with the Reps.

I grew up in LA and can't imagine living without a weapon. I have been attacked and threatend by gang members and I know how dangerous these people can be. For a time I also had to work on mobile CAT scanners parked outside of county hospitals. A cop local to one of these areas once told me I was nuts to work there while unarmed. And there were several very terrifying episodes of encounters with gangs under those circumstances.

There are times when life and death choices have to be made in a moment that are easy to second guess later. So, I can see why there are reasons to pass such a law. Frankly, if someone threatens my life, as far as I'm concerned they chose to chance being killed. If I felt that I have a better chance of survival by killing rather than by running, I would have no problem pulling the trigger.

 

[Skyhunter]

Unless you are very fast, running away is not a good option.

I have lived on the streets and am very street savvy. I am able to avoid most problems by attitude and presence. That said, if they know they are stronger there could be a problem. I would like the option of shooting them without being prosecuted.

On the other hand I can see how this law can be abused by the criminal element in Florida.

 

[pattylou]

My concern is that this becomes an easy excuse to kill people.

how do you assess that the person was threatening you, after he's dead? In some cases there will be no witnesses.

 

[Smurf]

florida just legalized murder. land of the free indeed.

 

[pattylou]

But also - this is exactly the tactic we've taken in Iraq.

i.e. "the way to defeat terrorism is to attack it." It doesn't seemt o be working.

If we need to lower gang activity, we should not go about it by killing them.

 

[russ_watters]

Self defense has always been a legitimate defense for a murder charge. And I rather suspect (Smurf) that it is a legitimate defense virtually everywhere. It is morally right and it just plain makes sense. This new law changes very little.

 

[russ_watters]

how do you assess that the person was threatening you, after he's dead? In some cases there will be no witnesses.

Forensics.

 

[Smurf]

Self defense has always been a legitimate defense for a murder charge. And I rather suspect (Smurf) that it is a legitimate defense virtually everywhere. It is morally right and it just plain makes sense. This new law changes very little.

In Canada we have something known as 'excessive force'.

from the link:

The State Attorney's Office investigated and filed no charges, which critics of the new law cite as evidence that self-defense provisions already were sufficient. Peaden said Workman should have been spared the investigation.

Without reading the actual bill, I'm assuming that people won't even be investigated? That's bull****, it's legal murder. Self defence is a legal defence - you use it in court.

If you kill someone you should be prosecuted (obvious exceptions) and if you're innocent you should get off. That's how it works, these short cuts serve only to undermine the legal system and create loop holes.

 

[Pengwuino]

If you kill someone you should be prosecuted (obvious exceptions) and if you're innocent you should get off. That's how it works, these short cuts serve only to undermine the legal system and create loop holes.

hehe, cute Canadians.

If someone came at you with a knife, all of a sudden the knife-wielding maniac is going to be the poor victim if you kill him? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This is a great law. My aunt has a friend that was thrown in jail because he shot at some punk on her property tryen to steal his stuff.

But then again this does kinda go against the theory that all criminals must be helped out in everyway possible and spend the least amount of time in discomfort as possible.

 

[Smurf]

This is a great law. My aunt has a friend that was thrown in jail because he shot at some punk on her property tryen to steal his stuff.

... good!

 

[Smurf]

If someone came at you with a knife, all of a sudden the knife-wielding maniac is going to be the poor victim if you kill him? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

no, can't see that happening actually. unless the courts are too corrupt to give a fair trial.

 

[Pengwuino]

... good!

Oh yah, i forgot.. Canadians defend criminals instead of victims!

 

[Smurf]

Oh yah, i forgot.. Canadians defend criminals instead of victims!

Aunt's friend loses some "stuff"... kid gets shot and possibly killed... Now, you obviously think the guy who has to buy a new TV is the victim - Me, I'm going to side with the person who loses their life.

In Canada we consider a person's life to be more valuable than someone's "stuff", no matter the situation.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well here in reality, we consider someone trespassing and taking things as a rather bad thing. We don't think that people should be hugged and supported after they go break into peoples houses.

 

[Smurf]

Well here in reality, we consider someone trespassing and taking things as a rather bad thing.

I'm wll aware of America's stance towards property. It's commodification is slowly spreading and infecting the rest of the world too. That's you're reality, I'll stick to mine - where my life is more valuable than a person's stuff.

 

[Pengwuino]

I'm wll aware of America's stance towards property. It's commodification is slowly spreading and infecting the rest of the world too. That's you're reality, I'll stick to mine - where my life is more valuable than a person's stuff.

And what makes you think that the burglar isn't ready to take your life too? Or let me guess, might as well let your family die because you don't want to risk hurting such a well-meaning human being such as the criminal.

 

[moose]

The thing is, you should always try everything possible before using deadly force, there are a few reasons. Bassically, if you kill someone, you could get sued in civil court and pay your ass off with all the fees involved in this.

If your aunt's friend was charged for shooting someone who was stealing stuff, and not threatening his life, than he deserves it. What the hell, what kind of person shoots someone for stealing their stuff? Killing someone should only be used when you are sure you or someone else will be severely hurt or dead if you don't act with deadly force, that's it, no exceptions. If someone steals a tv, you don't shoot them, you could simply threaten to shoot them and try to stop them(or hit them with a bat or something).

I absolutely do NOT think criminals should EVER get off for their crimes, but their lives shouldn't be brought to an end simply because they stole something. I feel bad for you because you live in California though, where you don't have any rights... I know where you are coming from to a certain degree, because California defense laws are rather...idiotic.

 

[Smurf]

And what makes you think that the burglar isn't ready to take your life too?

I'm actually completely unafraid of any such occurance. Funny how all of Canada's snuggling up to criminals has resulted in vastly lower crime rates than the US. We must be doing something wrong.

Or let me guess, might as well let your family die because you don't want to risk hurting such a well-meaning human being such as the criminal.

I don't have a family. I also never said I wouldn't defend myself.

 

[Smurf]

. If someone steals a tv, you don't shoot them, you could simply threaten to shoot them and try to stop them(or hit them with a bat or something).

How about calling the cops and taking his liscence plate? americans...

 

[Pengwuino]

How about calling the cops and taking his liscence plate? americans...

ha, you wish that would do anything. Like criminals ever use their OWN cars.

 

[Pengwuino]

If your aunt's friend was charged for shooting someone who was stealing stuff, and not threatening his life, than he deserves it. What the hell, what kind of person shoots someone for stealing their stuff? Killing someone should only be used when you are sure you or someone else will be severely hurt or dead if you don't act with deadly force, that's it, no exceptions. If someone steals a tv, you don't shoot them, you could simply threaten to shoot them and try to stop them(or hit them with a bat or something).

Oops there's your fallacy. Who is to say his life wasn't threatened? Someone has blatantly tossed aside the rules of society, is a criminal, and you have no idea what he has on him. Shall you wait for him to pull a gun? Why would you even assume a criminal is unarmed? That is like seeing a guy barreling down on you at 60mph while asleep and think to yourself "well... I better wait till the last second to find out if he's going to wake up and swerve out of the way". If the guys asleep, don't assume he's going to swerve out of the way. If a criminal is a criminal, don't assume he's going to play nicely.

Now before you make a bigger fool of yourself smurf, do my homework... i really don't want to do a critique of some idiots belief of Atlantis based on what they picked up off a few websites. Its due tomorrow at 10am... meet me outside my class.

Oh wait, you live in Canada...

 

[Smurf]

Oh wait, you live in Canada...

You're a bright one.

 

[Pengwuino]

You're a bright one.

Do my homework anyway before i rob you

 

[moose]

How about calling the cops and taking his liscence plate? americans...

Well of course, that is what I would do, but if someone wants to shoot them, I doubt they would settle for less than what I said.

 

[loseyourname]

What class are you taking that requires you to critique someone's written beliefs regarding the existence of Atlantis? That has to be some kind of inside joke I'm not aware of.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well of course, that is what I would do, but if someone wants to shoot them, I doubt they would settle for less than what I said.

haha, you WISH the cops could ever find your stuff or catch the guy using a license plate. They never use their own vehicles. You shoot people to protect yourself. No criminal has your best intentions in mind.

 

[moose]

Oops there's your fallacy. Who is to say his life wasn't threatened? Someone has blatantly tossed aside the rules of society, is a criminal, and you have no idea what he has on him. Shall you wait for him to pull a gun? Why would you even assume a criminal is unarmed? That is like seeing a guy barreling down on you at 60mph while asleep and think to yourself "well... I better wait till the last second to find out if he's going to wake up and swerve out of the way". If the guys asleep, don't assume he's going to swerve out of the way. If a criminal is a criminal, don't assume he's going to play nicely.

Now before you make a bigger fool of yourself smurf, do my homework... i really don't want to do a critique of some idiots belief of Atlantis based on what they picked up off a few websites. Its due tomorrow at 10am... meet me outside my class.

Oh wait, you live in Canada...

I do live in Arizona, I hope you know(EDIT: wow I'm stupid, wow, just wow O.O, forget what I said, the only reason that I didnt finish reading what you said was because I am busy with an essay for history :uhh:)... I have lived around firearms for the past 6 years of my life, so I am familiar with the "system".

Why don't I just assume you are a criminal before you start stealing anything, why don't I just pull out a gun and shoot everyone I see, for all I know they could try to kill me at any moment. Seriously though, if you have a gun holstered on you, and someone pulls a gun on you without shooting instantly, you can always draw and shoot before they can react(assuming you are trained...). Now, criminals don't want to shoot you, because then they are more likely to be caught because people will try to catch the murderer far more than if the criminal simply stole something.

If someone is stealing your stuff, and you are armed, you can yell at the kid to get the hell out, or you can call the cops(heh). If you yell at the kid with your gun drawn and yell at them to not move or you shoot, then they will either spring away or sit still.

Now, of course they can pull a gun on you, but the point is, could your aunt's friend have run away? If someone was stealing something of mine and I was armed(which would mean I would be a few years older
:uhh: ) than I would tell them to get the hell out. Chances are so low that the person has a gun...if they do, well, you are in a gun fight now and pray that they suck at shooting.

 

[Pengwuino]

What class are you taking that requires you to critique someone's written beliefs regarding the existence of Atlantis? That has to be some kind of inside joke I'm not aware of.

Oh you got one thing right. This class is a joke. Its title is "science or nonsense". Basically its a way of teaching people how to discern reliable facts from nonsense and superstition and that kinda crap. Its a GE class and the rest of the stuff in the category looks boooooooooooooring as hell. Plus I figured, easy A. Too bad everyones a bunch of loud mouth still-in-high school-minded idiots... Professor got the job 3 weeks before the class started so he's pretty out of it as well.

 

[Pengwuino]

Now, of course they can pull a gun on you, but the point is, could your aunt's friend have run away? If someone was stealing something of mine and I was armed(which would mean I would be a few years older
:uhh: ) than I would tell them to get the hell out. Chances are so low that the person has a gun...if they do, well, you are in a gun fight now and pray that they suck at shooting.

What kidn of paradise do you live in? Ha, I WISH criminals around here didn't shoot people for no damn reason. I can stomach your reasoning if crime rates were.. maybe 1/4 of what they are now and people didn't just kill for the hell of it.

Also your reasoning is flawed as to who is a criminal and who isnt. If someone si in your house, that is a criminal. If someone is walken on the sidewalk, that isn't a criminal. They are in your house, that's a crime, trespassing, its a criminal. Innocent people don't simply jump through your window after getting lost on the street.

A second reason as to why your reasoning bad is because you are telling people to wait for the very last second adn put themselves in the 2nd most dangerous situation they can be in (other then coming out unarmed) in order to be gentle on the criminal. I mean you are seriously asking people to put themselves in a shootout instead of treating criminals like the criminals they are.

 

[moose]

What kidn of paradise do you live in? Ha, I WISH criminals around here didn't shoot people for no damn reason. I can stomach your reasoning if crime rates were.. maybe 1/4 of what they are now and people didn't just kill for the hell of it.

I guess I am more used to my part of town, in Arizona. I remember hearing about how much worse it is in California, mainly because people there don't have a right to defend themselves. So the paradise I live in is called non ghetto part of Arizona .

A second reason as to why your reasoning bad is because you are telling people to wait for the very last second adn put themselves in the 2nd most dangerous situation they can be in (other then coming out unarmed) in order to be gentle on the criminal. I mean you are seriously asking people to put themselves in a shootout instead of treating criminals like the criminals they are.

Well, see, around here almost all of the thiefs are teenagers almost never armed. Then again, this entire time I have assumed the criminal was in the garage or something... If they actually broke into your house, then everything changes because these criminals are more serious...

To me, it really depends on where it is and in what type of situation...

 

[hitssquad]

Self defense has always been a legitimate defense for a murder charge.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html#self-defense

 

[Manchot]

Well here in reality, we consider someone trespassing and taking things as a rather bad thing. We don't think that people should be hugged and supported after they go break into peoples houses.

This is false logic which has been invoked so many times that it's sick (and the fact that it's believeable to many goes to the stupidity of the average person). Repeat after me: hugging and supporting somebody is not the same thing as not shooting them.

 

[pattylou]

Forensics.

Can you give some details on that? What specifically would lead you to a conclusion that the dead guy was threatening the killer, or what specifically would lead you to conclude that he wasn't?

 

[pattylou]

This is false logic which has been invoked so many times that it's sick (and the fact that it's believeable to many goes to the stupidity of the average person). Repeat after me: hugging and supporting somebody is not the same thing as not shooting them.

Thanks, Manchot. I agree.

Pengwuino, is Fresno really that bad? My God. It sounds worse even than LA.

FTR, (in case anyone outside the US was wondering) the views expressed by Pengwuino are not representative of the US as a whole. I don't love my stuff, it's more "necessary baggage" than anything else. Even if I did love it, I wouldn't shoot at someone who was trying to take it.

For God's sake, has anyone in this discussion considered what it would do to your sense of self, to be responsible for someone's *death?* I think it was in Natural Born Killers, or maybe Pulp Fiction, or maybe Fargo... where one of the characters pretty callously talks about the first one being the hardest. That rings pretty true to me - My God. THis trend is insane. This is not how we want to be raising our kids.

You guys are talking about self defense --- Have you considered trying to *defend* that part of yourself that is beautiful, innocent, and good? Defending this part of your self would entail not killing a fellow human being, no matter what the circumstances.

Self defense. :uhh: Self delusion is more like it.

(End of lecture.)