Death of a car battery and related issues

In summary, our car's battery was declared "dead" by the service personnel. The battery was not used for a month, and it seems that the voltage may have dropped a bit. The service personnel said that the readings were "bad". I don't know what "bad" means, but I assume it is not good. My father did not check the readings of the multimeter, so he does not know for sure. The battery needs to be charged every week, according to the service personnel, but we were told that once a month would be good. It is possible that the battery is dead, and the engine may not have started at all if it was not charged. I think that it is important to keep the battery
  • #1
Wrichik Basu
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We have a Toyota Etios Liva, four years old, petrol variant. Today, my father took it for annual servicing at the authorised service centre, where the service personnel declared that the battery was "dead".

Our car is not used much. Usually on an average, it is driven for around 14km per month. But last month, the car was not driven at all.

I switched on the engine, the AC, lights, and defogger a few days back, and everything was working fine. Today also, the car was properly driven to the service centre without any problem.

Temperature here in Kolkata didn't drop below 12°C this winter.

I suspect that the battery voltage might have dropped a bit as the car was not driven for a month. The service personnel said that readings were "bad". How bad I don't know. My father didn't check the readings of the multimeter, as he is not quite interested. If I were there, I would have checked. If the battery was dead as described, would the engine have started at all?

My questions are:

1. I believe it is not correct to conclude on the battery's health in this condition. I read somewhere on the net that a car battery may need more than 12 hours charging for a full charge. I think if the battery was tested for charge retention after a full charge, it would have been appropriate. Am I right?

2. The service personnel said that I have to switch on the engine of the car at least once every week, while we were told that charging the battery once a month would be good. Isn't it too much that a battery would die if not charged every week? Are car batteries so weak?

3. For what minimum time should the battery be switched on so that it can be kept alive?

N.B.: I don't have the old battery, because the company offered to recycle it in exchange of some money and my father agreed. Also, the battery had a warranty period of four years, and it was declared dead just when the warranty ended. This seems a bit suspicious to me, though I cannot confirm my suspicions as I was not there when the check was done.
 
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  • #2
An unused, uncharged car battery will slowly discharge at about 1% per day at room temperature. The discharge rate is significantly slower when it is cold. (see bottom of page https://www.powerstream.com/car-battery-faq.htm). They are not "deep discharge" batteries which can tolerate getting deeply discharged. It still takes a long time for it to get dangerously low. A real danger is if the car charging system does not work.
The way you are using your car, I recommend that you purchase a smart trickle-charge battery tender and leave it on during the long unused periods.
 
  • #3
A proper battery test has two steps. The first checks the state of charge. If the battery is not fully charged, then it needs to be charged. The second step, which needs to be done with a fully charged battery, measures the battery voltage under a load that simulates the starter power draw.

@FactChecker is correct about using a trickle charger.
 
  • #4
Adding to what @FactChecker said: When a lead-acid battery is stored at a low state-of-charge, the plates become sulfated. The performance of sulfated batteries is very bad and it might fail the tests.

That is why the trickle charger is a good idea. The battery should be close to full charge while it is stored.

There are methods to recover a sulfated battery, but most auto dealers won't do that any more. A smaller repair shop, or shops specializing in batteries might help.

It is also possible that one of the lead plates in the battery has a crack. That can not be repaired. Sometimes, cracks happen with no good reason. A battery repair shop can also tell the difference between a crack and sulfation.
 
  • #5
@FactChecker, @jrmichler and @anorlunda I cannot use a trickle charger. The reason is this: The garage where we keep the car is not owned by us. It has been taken on rent (don't know about the USA, but this is something quite common here). As per the legal agreements, we have access to a light connection only, and not a plug point.

Although it doesn't take much to draw a socket from the bulb connection, the owner periodically checks, and alterations, whatsoever, are banned by the agreement.
 
  • #6
@Wrichik Basu , It is sometimes hard for us to imagine conditions in other countries.

If that is the case, then you may need more drastic measures. You could remove the battery from the car, bring it into your house and use a trickle charger there. You could also start the car every week and let it run for an hour or so. Also new to the market, are lithium batteries in car size; but they are very expensive about double the cost of lead-acid.

Years ago, I lived in a very cold place where temperatures would go below -40 for days at a time. Many of my neighbors would bring the car battery into the house to keep it warm overnight. There were rumors of people sleeping with the battery under their blanket, but I don't believe it.

The point is, more-aggressive, less-convenient measures are sometimes needed.
 
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  • #7
I would say 4 years from a battery that came with the automobile is excellent. Typically 3 years is about the max you should expect. You need a proper battery tester that puts a load o n the battery. Volt Ohm meter will not tell condition of the battery. So get a new battery. Also make sure the antifreeze is changed.
Avoid short stop and go trips as this is very harmful to the life of the vehicle.
 
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  • #8
Wrichik Basu said:
As per the legal agreements, we have access to a light connection only, and not a plug point.

Where's that light? Is it a reflector type?

a one foot square photocell right under the bulb would provide some trickle current when the light is on.
one can buy solar trickle chargers.
71pD7v3Vz1L._SX466_.jpg


They won't give full output in artificial light, but just asking might help 'break the ice" with landlord.
Wrichik Basu said:
alterations, whatsoever, are banned by the agreement.
have you asked him about plugging in a small trickle charger ?
They take so little power as to be negligible, ten or twenty watts = just pennies per day
unlike an engine block heater that draws perhaps four hundred watts = pennies per hour.
offer him an extra dollar a month ? My guess on your battery is it failed their load test. One day soon it would have stranded you.
I pay attention to the sound of my starter and can tell from that when the battery is near end of life because the starter runs slower. .
That's when i replace it and it's usually a very few months after end of warranty. (though i did have one go two years past) .

You can also measure voltage during cranking. Should stay above nine volts.

old jim
 

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  • #9
jim hardy said:
Where's that light? Is it a reflector type?

a one foot square photocell right under the bulb would provide some trickle current when the light is on.
one can buy solar trickle chargers.
View attachment 237190

They won't give full output in artificial light, but just asking might help 'break the ice" with landlord.
Or if located next to a window...
 
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  • #10
jim hardy said:
Where's that light? Is it a reflector type?
It's an old filament bulb. Something of this sort:

Gluehlampe_01_KMJ.png

jim hardy said:
a one foot square photocell right under the bulb would provide some trickle current when the light is on.
one can buy solar trickle chargers.

They won't give full output in artificial light, but just asking might help 'break the ice" with landlord.
Not a bad idea, but the landlord has a switch inside his house through which he switches off the power supply to the garage.
jim hardy said:
have you asked him about plugging in a small trickle charger ?
They take so little power as to be negligible, ten or twenty watts = just pennies per day
unlike an engine block heater that draws perhaps four hundred watts = pennies per hour.
offer him an extra dollar a month ?
There's no problem from our side, but trying to make him understand maths is like talking to a stone. Nevertheless, I will try.
jim hardy said:
My guess on your battery is it failed their load test.
What is this?
jim hardy said:
I pay attention to the sound of my starter and can tell from that when the battery is near end of life because the starter runs slower. .
That's when i replace it and it's usually a very few months after end of warranty. (though i did have one go two years past) .
When I started the car, it switched on beautifully like any other day. It was working quite well. That's why I was thinking that there might be a fraud here.
 

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  • #11
Wrichik Basu said:
When I started the car, it switched on beautifully like any other day. It was working quite well. That's why I was thinking that there might be a fraud here.
From what you have said, there is no way to rule that out. And the way it is working sounds like it also. But the battery is getting old and probably has not been treated very well (short drives which do not charge it up completely), so it could go bad at any time. I think you should start with a new one and treat it well. I like that solar trickle charger that @jim hardy mentioned.

PS. Maybe they were cheating a little, but I would prefer them to be conservative rather than them saying that it is ok and then it failing the next week.
 
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  • #12
Wrichik Basu said:
What is this?
They should load the battery to a couple hundred amps and measure how much its voltage drops.

Wrichik Basu said:
When I started the car, it switched on beautifully like any other day. It was working quite well. That's why I was thinking that there might be a fraud here.
That is possible.
Next time you can say to them
"When you load test my battery, write down for me what are the test current and voltage readings."

..........................

The slowdown in starter speed is subtle and you have to train your ear.
It is more pronounced in a diesel where it's important the starter not slow down on compression strokes.
On my '83 Ford Ranger diesel i can hear it a couple months before the batteries(it has two) get too weak to start in cold weather.

old jim
 
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  • #13
jim hardy said:
That is possible.
Next time you can say to them
"When you load test my battery, write down for me what are the test current and voltage readings."
That's exactly what I would have done if I was in my father's place. It would have made things clear.

Since the battery has been changed, I believe that now I have to take better care of it. One option, the one that I find suitable, is:
anorlunda said:
You could remove the battery from the car, bring it into your house and use a trickle charger there.
I am going to learn to drive in March. I hope that the car will be used to some extent during that time. When I will not be using it, I'll be detaching the battery from the car and bringing it home, and keep it connected to the trickle charger. I think that's the only way left for me.

Just two more questions:

1. If maintained properly, how long can the battery last?

2. Should there be any precautions that I should keep in mind when I am detaching the battery?
 
  • #14
Wrichik Basu said:
1. If maintained properly, how long can the battery last?
The battery that came with my new car lasted 9 years.
 
  • #15
OmCheeto said:
The battery that came with my new car lasted 9 years.
You are rather lucky. Online sources are telling that the battery coming with the car doesn't last more than five or six years.
 
  • #16
If you remove the battery you may have to re-enter the anti theft code if it has one.

I killed a lot of car batteries by deep discharging them for a hobby. Typically they only lasted a year. Once I started to use a float charger/trickle charger they typically lasted more like 4 years even though they were getting heavily used.
 
  • #17
CWatters said:
If you remove the battery you may have to re-enter the anti theft code if it has one.
Re-enter the code where? And by the way, who will know that I am removing the battery, except you guys? :wink:
 
  • #18
Wrichik Basu said:
1. If maintained properly, how long can the battery last?
my experience is four to seven years.

Wrichik Basu said:
2. Should there be any precautions that I should keep in mind when I am detaching the battery?
Disconnect the 'ground'(negative) terminal first.
That way , should your wrench accidentally touch metal there'll be no sparks.
When putting it back in, reconnect 'ground' terminal last for same reason.

OmCheeto said:
The battery that came with my new car lasted 9 years.
Beats my record of seven !
 
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  • #19
jim hardy said:
...
Beats my record of seven !
I don't think I've ever owned a car for more than 7 years, until now.
I bought my previous vehicles with at least 100k miles on them.

Btw, this morning I did an analysis on a pair of solar panels I bought for my friend's boat.
Her batteries seldom lasted more than a year. (4 months of boating, and 8 months of sitting)
I think a 5 watt solar panel is the perfect solution to extend a seldom used battery's life.

The only problem I can imagine is remembering to unplug it before you drive away.
 
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  • #20
It's worth noting for optimal battery life that a trickle charger is not the same thing as a battery tender/maintenance charger. Make sure you buy a charger designed to remain connected to the battery even after it reaches full charge (I use one of these, but I'm sure there are other options out there too). A simple trickle charger can still overcharge the battery and shorten its life.
 
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  • #21
I have seen some portable car jump starters that look like they may be able to charge up a battery. I have no experience with them. That may be a lot more convenient then removing the battery and having to put it back every time you want to drive the car.
OmCheeto said:
The only problem I can imagine is remembering to unplug it before you drive away.
I always leave the hood up when it is connected. And I second @cjl 's warning to use a smart battery tender, not a dumb trickle charger.
 
  • #22
Ranger Mike said:
I would say 4 years from a battery that came with the automobile is excellent.
I bought a 2003 Ford Escape used in 2006 or so, and didn't need to replace the battery until 2005. I don't know whether the battery that came with the car, which had been in an accident, was the OEM battery.

OmCheeto said:
The battery that came with my new car lasted 9 years.
I bought a Ford Focus new in 2007, and kept it until 2015, when I traded it in for a new Focus. I never replaced the battery in that time.

jim hardy said:
my experience is four to seven years.
I think it has to do with how often you drive the car. If you drive it regularly, the battery lasts longer.

I also have four motorcycles, and their much smaller batteries don't last as long. If I get four years out of them, I feel like I'm doing well. I don't ride them much this time of year, due to the cool, wet weather in Western Washington, but I did take the two oldest ones out for short jaunts yesterday and today. I keep all of them charged with battery tenders, and that helps with battery longevity, I believe.
 
  • #23
@cjl and @FactChecker I was thinking of using a Bosch C3 charger or Bosch C7 charger. Both of them seem to be trickle chargers, as per the description. While the Amazon.com reviews are somewhat bad, the Anazon.in reviews are quite good.A hearty thanks to everyone for the help. Once again PF has helped me a lot. :smile:
 
  • #24
Wrichik Basu said:
@cjl and @FactChecker I was thinking of using a Bosch C3 charger or Bosch C7 charger. Both of them seem to be trickle chargers, as per the description. While the Amazon.com reviews are somewhat bad, the Anazon.in reviews are quite good.
Wow, those prices look HUGE! But I don't know what money unit that is. I have been very satisfied with the "BatteryTender" brand. There are many others like it. I like one where you can leave a connector on the battery and just plug/unplug from the connector. The connector has a built-in fuse. Here are several: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_14?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=battery+tender&sprefix=battery+tender,aps,187
 
  • #25
FactChecker said:
Wow, those prices look HUGE! But I don't know what money unit that is.
Those are in INR. The C7 is really high priced, but the C3 is still affordable.

This one among the ones you've linked is quite low-priced, but they are all for 120V and here in India we get 220V.
 
  • #26
Wrichik Basu said:
I cannot use a trickle charger. The reason is this: The garage where we keep the car is not owned by us. It has been taken on rent (don't know about the USA, but this is something quite common here). As per the legal agreements, we have access to a light connection only, and not a plug point.

Although it doesn't take much to draw a socket from the bulb connection, the owner periodically checks, and alterations, whatsoever, are banned by the agreement.[/USER]

Two ideas:
1) Talk to the landlord and offer to replace the energy consuming inefficient filament bulb with an energy efficient LED bulb if he will let you add a tiny little trickle charger that uses almost zero electricity.

2) Offer to pay the landlord for the electricity used by a trickle charger at two or three times the rate that he pays. You can measure the electricity with a Kill A Watt or similar:

upload_2019-1-13_8-54-4.png
[/user]
 

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  • #27
jrmichler said:
You can measure the electricity with a Kill A Watt or similar:
I trust they're set up for the country where you buy them. Mine is 120VAC and has that NEMA 5-15 receptacle as in the photo.
 
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  • #28
jim hardy said:
one can buy solar trickle chargers.

And mount the solar panel on the outside of the garage.
 
  • #29
starting a vehicle without running it for half an hour or more under more than an idling load depletes the battery, that could be the reason for the measurement they obtained.

OEM batteries last about 5 yrs on average, my 17 year old truck had it replaced 3 times before I finally sold it. They will last longer but you will run the risk of getting stranded away from home.
 
  • #30
Dr Transport said:
starting a vehicle without running it for half an hour or more under more than an idling load depletes the battery...

That sounds very wrong.

starting a car
250 amps starting current (ref: some random web page)
2 seconds to start my car (ref: me, a bit ago)
12.5 volt​

yields 1.7 watt hours​

My alternator has a capacity of 130 amps

charging my car
20 amp output (interpolated from the shop manual of my 1984 vehicle's alternator output graph)
12.5 volts
250 watt alternator output at idle
1.7 watt hours required to recharge battery

yields 24 seconds to recharge the battery.
Or, about half a minute.​

I only caught this, as I'm retired, drive an average of 1 mile per day, and my original battery lasted 4 years under those conditions.

ps. All bolding mine.
 
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  • #31
Indeed. My car turns off the engine automatically at stops. So on the school run it restarts about a dozen times in 30 mins.
 
  • #32
CWatters said:
Indeed. My car turns off the engine automatically at stops. So on the school run it restarts about a dozen times in 30 mins.
New generation stop-start features are engineered somewhat differently to older lead-acid systems. For example, they may contain a supercapacitor (very low impedance = very fast charging) to support a sealed gel-electrolye battery.

Although 30min minimum charge for one start is very conservative even for lead-acid, I would not try starting an unsupported lead-acid battery once every 30sec with only idling between. It WILL die faster.
 
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  • #33
mic* said:
New generation stop-start features are engineered somewhat differently to older lead-acid systems. For example, they may contain a supercapacitor (very low impedance = very fast charging) to support a sealed gel-electrolye battery.

Although 30min minimum charge for one start is very conservative even for lead-acid, I would not try starting an unsupported lead-acid battery once every 30sec with only idling between. It WILL die faster.
Not to mention your starter. I did the experiment on my last vehicle, and my starter failed within a week.
 
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  • #34
CWatters said:
Indeed. My car turns off the engine automatically at stops. So on the school run it restarts about a dozen times in 30 mins.
Even if I keep the issue of the battery aside based on what @mic* said, doesn't that consume more fuel? I generally had the idea that an engine in good condition, if kept in idling state at traffic signals, consumes less fuel than what it would have consumed when switched off and turned on again and again (I assume that air conditioners, heaters and defoggers are all switched off).
 
  • #35
Wrichik Basu said:
Even if I keep the issue of the battery aside based on what @mic* said, doesn't that consume more fuel? I generally had the idea that an engine in good condition, if kept in idling state at traffic signals, consumes less fuel than what it would have consumed when switched off and turned on again and again (I assume that air conditioners, heaters and defoggers are all switched off).
In short, no.

Maybe in the past it could not have worked so well, but electronic fuelling and engine sensing is relatively precise these days. The engine will be warm, so there will be no "cold start" enrichment. And the engine knows exactly where it is so you generally find they fire immediately, rather than needing that extra turn of the crank before running. They fire up so quick that by the time your foot has moved from the brake to the accelerator, your engine is already running again.
 
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<h2>1. What are the signs that a car battery is dying?</h2><p>Some common signs that a car battery is dying include difficulty starting the car, dimming headlights, and a clicking sound when turning the key in the ignition.</p><h2>2. How long does a car battery typically last?</h2><p>The average lifespan of a car battery is around 3-5 years. However, this can vary depending on factors such as driving habits, climate, and maintenance.</p><h2>3. Can extreme temperatures affect a car battery's lifespan?</h2><p>Yes, both extreme heat and extreme cold can have a negative impact on a car battery's lifespan. High temperatures can cause the battery to overheat and lose its charge, while freezing temperatures can slow down the chemical reactions needed for the battery to function properly.</p><h2>4. What causes a car battery to die?</h2><p>There are several factors that can contribute to a car battery dying, including age, extreme temperatures, lack of maintenance, and electrical issues in the vehicle.</p><h2>5. How can I prolong the life of my car battery?</h2><p>To prolong the life of your car battery, it is important to regularly check and maintain the battery, avoid extreme temperatures when possible, and limit short trips that do not allow the battery to fully recharge. It is also recommended to have your battery tested and replaced if necessary every 3-5 years.</p>

1. What are the signs that a car battery is dying?

Some common signs that a car battery is dying include difficulty starting the car, dimming headlights, and a clicking sound when turning the key in the ignition.

2. How long does a car battery typically last?

The average lifespan of a car battery is around 3-5 years. However, this can vary depending on factors such as driving habits, climate, and maintenance.

3. Can extreme temperatures affect a car battery's lifespan?

Yes, both extreme heat and extreme cold can have a negative impact on a car battery's lifespan. High temperatures can cause the battery to overheat and lose its charge, while freezing temperatures can slow down the chemical reactions needed for the battery to function properly.

4. What causes a car battery to die?

There are several factors that can contribute to a car battery dying, including age, extreme temperatures, lack of maintenance, and electrical issues in the vehicle.

5. How can I prolong the life of my car battery?

To prolong the life of your car battery, it is important to regularly check and maintain the battery, avoid extreme temperatures when possible, and limit short trips that do not allow the battery to fully recharge. It is also recommended to have your battery tested and replaced if necessary every 3-5 years.

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