Death Penalty for cut and dried cases?

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  • #1
Evo
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For some crimes, it seems the death penalty is not punishment enough. I am for the death penalty in cases, such as this, where there is no question of guilt. But I also agree that in these cases, the death penalty should be carried out immediately after sentencing

Would you agree or disagree with the death penalty in a case such as this?

On that June night, the girls were hoping to beat an 11:30 p.m. curfew by taking a shortcut home to Pena's northwest Houston neighborhood. They were crossing a railroad bridge when the gang, drinking beer and initiating a new member, spotted them.

One of the gang members grabbed Pena. She screamed. Ertman tried to help.

In what police later would describe as a sadistic frenzy, the girls were gang-raped for more than an hour. They were forced to perform oral sex. They were kicked, teeth knocked out and hair pulled out and ribs broken. A red nylon belt, with an attacker tugging at each end, was pulled so tightly around Ertman's neck the belt snapped. Shoelaces were used to strangle Pena.

Evidence showed Cantu kicked one of the girls in the face with his steel-toed boot.

Cantu's brother, upset at the gang's gloating about having fun with the girls, called police.

Cantu, then 18, orchestrated the attacks and slaying. He became notorious for trying to kick a TV cameraman recording his arrest.

Authorities later linked him and O'Brien to a killing six months before the attack on Ertman and Pena. In that case, a 27-year-old woman was found at a Houston park with her throat cut. She'd been raped and eviscerated.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100817/ap_on_re_us/us_gang_killings_execution;_ylt=AqkSw9xU8DLA.OFXZ6sdf3VH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTNmODE1bzU4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwODE3L3VzX2dhbmdfa2lsbGluZ3NfZXhlY3V0aW9uBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZXMEc2xrAzNyZHRyaXB0b3RleA-- [Broken]
 
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  • #2
Gokul43201
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There's never really "no question".
 
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  • #3
Evo
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There's never "no question". But to answer the question directly, no I don't support the death penalty in so-called cut-and-dried cases.
Do you think there is a question as to guilt in this case? If yes, what is the doubt?
 
  • #4
Gokul43201
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I edited out part of my previous answer (in order to avoid getting drawn into the larger discussion) - but not fast enough. I should have taken back my entire answer, as I do not think I will be making the time to read the details of the particular case.

In general, I hold that one can only absolutely prove mathematical conjectures. When it comes to proving some aspect of physical reality, you can supply more and more evidence to support it, but that's the best you can do.
 
  • #5
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Czolgosz, Ruby, Nidal? No questions.
 
  • #6
drankin
For some crimes, it seems the death penalty is not punishment enough. I am for the death penalty in cases, such as this, where there is no question of guilt. But I also agree that in these cases, the death penalty should be carried out immediately after sentencing

Would you agree or disagree with the death penalty in a case such as this?



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100817/ap_on_re_us/us_gang_killings_execution;_ylt=AqkSw9xU8DLA.OFXZ6sdf3VH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTNmODE1bzU4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwODE3L3VzX2dhbmdfa2lsbGluZ3NfZXhlY3V0aW9uBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZXMEc2xrAzNyZHRyaXB0b3RleA-- [Broken]
I agree totally. I think one of the reasons the death penalty is not as effective these days is because it can take a decade for it to be carried out. Execution should be a deterent for others as well as a punishment. But if it isn't swift, then the deterent aspect is lost.
 
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  • #7
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People who commit crimes have at least one of two beliefs that people who do not commit crimes don't have. They are:

1. They won't get caught.
2. They are justified in committing the crime.

If they hold the first belief, then it doesn't matter what the punishment is, it is ineffective in deterring the crime.

Many people who hold the second belief aren't concerned whether they'll be caught or not. People in this category may include the mentally ill or those involved in civil disobedience.

I suspect that many criminals hold both beliefs, justifying in their own minds their reasons for committing the crime. Perhaps what is hardest to understand for those who don't commit crimes is that the deterrents which seem logical and effective to them are not so for the criminal.
 
  • #8
jgens
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Would you agree or disagree with the death penalty in a case such as this?
Yes. I disagree with the death penalty period, but that's just a particular moral value of mine.
 
  • #9
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Death penalty if there's no doubt they did it and the crime is bad enough. The crime doesn't even have to be murder for the death penalty to be warranted.
If it's a crime that's bad, but not death penalty worthy, then they should be sent to a deserted island and never allowed to return.
I suspect that many criminals hold both beliefs, justifying in their own minds their reasons for committing the crime. Perhaps what is hardest to understand for those who don't commit crimes is that the deterrents which seem logical and effective to them are not so for the criminal.
The best way is to find the psychopaths early, when they're still children, and develop medicine to treat their illness.
Some may not be psychopaths, but if you're eviscerating people, you're a psychopath.
 
  • #10
Evo
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For those that are against the death penalty, a question. Do you believe that the sentence for someone that tortures and kills for entertainment should be the same as for a thief that injured no one?

Should all crimes have the same punishment?
 
  • #11
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I am a supporter of death penalty. Yes, I think the perpetrators should be executed swiftly, so the state doesn't lose any money on them.
 
  • #12
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Perhaps that someone who tortured and killed for entertainment might be tortured and killed as punishment?

Is this not a way of justifying in our own minds what would be a crime in other circumstances.

If punishment is ineffective against criminals as a deterrent, thus the crime, then shouldn't the intent of the law be to either rehabilitate the criminal or isolate the criminal from society as a preventive measure instead of a punitive one?
 
  • #13
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Perhaps that someone who tortured and killed for entertainment might be tortured and killed as punishment?
Hang, drawn and quartered in a public square ? :devil:

lethal injection is cheaper :P
 
  • #14
drankin
Hang, drawn and quartered in a public square ? :devil:

lethal injection is cheaper :P
Firing squad is cheaper still.
 
  • #15
jgens
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For those that are against the death penalty, a question. Do you believe that the sentence for someone that tortures and kills for entertainment should be the same as for a thief that injured no one?

Should all crimes have the same punishment?
Certainly not. A thief that injures no one will only serve a few years in jail at most (typically) while a murderer often serves life in prison. Personally, I believe that this is how things should be.
 
  • #16
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Certainly not. A thief that injures no one will only serve a few years in jail at most (typically) while a murderer often serves life in prison. Personally, I believe that this is how things should be.
Blood for blood, this is how things should be :P Why waste the state money to support the life of a criminal in prison ? THe millions spent during a lifetime for a murderer can be used in health system to save same valuable lifes :P
 
  • #18
Evo
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Perhaps that someone who tortured and killed for entertainment might be tortured and killed as punishment?

Is this not a way of justifying in our own minds what would be a crime in other circumstances.

If punishment is ineffective against criminals as a deterrent, thus the crime, then shouldn't the intent of the law be to either rehabilitate the criminal or isolate the criminal from society as a preventive measure instead of a punitive one?
Which brings up an interesting question. Is there less serious crime in countries that have severe punishments for the crime?

I don't mean crazy punishment that does not match the crime, like the recent taliban sanctioned stoning to death of an adulterous couple, without legal process and carried out by a group of crazed villagers.

I believe that extreme care should be taken to prevent the innocent from being sentenced. But does that then mean that all crimes are punished equally, with the exception of duration of time served?
 
  • #19
jgens
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Blood for blood, this is how things should be :P Why waste the state money to support the life of a criminal in prison ? THe millions spent during a lifetime for a murderer can be used in health system to save same valuable lifes :P
In my opinion, to deny someone the right to appeal would be a violation of due process. These appeals are quite costly to the state and thus millions aren't actually saved by executing criminals. Moreover, hasty executions would only increase the likelihood that an innocent person will be executed.
 
  • #20
cristo
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How is "cut and dried" defined?
 
  • #22
BobG
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For those that are against the death penalty, a question. Do you believe that the sentence for someone that tortures and kills for entertainment should be the same as for a thief that injured no one?

Should all crimes have the same punishment?
You're mixing two issues.

Should the penalty for someone who tortures people for fun be the same as the penalty for someone who gets in a fight, wins, and continues to toss in some extra blows and kicks even after his opponent has given up and is no longer fighting?

Should the penalty for someone who tortures and kills for fun be the same as the penalty for shooting someone before stealing their wallet and their car?

Even in wars, where behavior normally considered abhorrent (killing) is not only considered acceptable, but desirable, there are limits to acceptable behavior. Torture is a crime even in wars. Not only ending someone's life, but making their last few minutes of life full of extreme pain and terror deserves extra punishment.

I think the death penalty might be used too often by some states, but it's still a fitting punishment for particularly sick crimes.
 
  • #23
Evo
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How is "cut and dried" defined?
On top of evidence, the criminal admits to the crime and is found to be of sound mind. If anything is in question, then it's not cut and dried. This means there would be very few affected by such changes to the death penalty, but this would be one case where nothing is being questioned.
 
  • #24
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What is the purpose of the death penalty?
 
  • #25
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What is the purpose of the death penalty?
punishment, not deterrence.
 

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