Is Depleted Uranium Really a Problem?

[kyleb]

But while I'm sure you would feel perfectly safe chuging down a glass of dihydrogen monoxide, I doubt you be willing to suck down the gas created in the vaporization of a DU round. Eh, LunchBox?

 

[russ_watters]

There is a conventional bomb with uranium in it? What bomb are you talking about, Russ?

Ok, correction: at this point, it is just suspected, as it is classified (though I'm willing to concede it is probable that the GBU-28 does use it): http://www.eoslifework.co.uk/pdfs/DU2102A3b.pdf

 

[hitssquad]

Interesting. Thanks for the info, Russ.

 

[FredGarvin]

To the woman above who was concerned about a family member about to go. 518,000 of the Troopers who've served in Iraq are now on Medical Disability. That is a staggering 56%. Do everything you can to try to keep him or her out of Iraq or Afghanistan. Be creative! Don't be timid.

The US Military used 375 Tons of weaponized poisonous uranium oxide gas in the First Gulf War.

GW1 (which I was part of) the US had a little over 500,000 TROOPS (please stop saying "troopers"). You're saying that between GW1 and 2 that the equivilent of the entire US contingent in GW1 is on disability. Until I see hard fact numbers, I call B.S.

Also...I found this little tid-bit:

The World Health Organization was nonetheless able to assess the health risks of Depleted Uranium in a post-combat environment thanks to a 2001 mission to Kosovo. A 2001 WHO fact sheet on depleted uranium concludes: "because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group. Risks for other radiation-induced cancers, including leukaemia, are considered to be very much lower than for lung cancer." In addition, "no reproductive or developmental effects have been reported in humans" as a result of DU exposure.

source: http://www.who.int/ionizing_radiation/env/du/en/

 

[LunchBox]

But while I'm sure you would feel perfectly safe chuging down a glass of dihydrogen monoxide, I doubt you be willing to suck down the gas created in the vaporization of a DU round.

Thank you for picking up on the sarcasm... I was wondering if I laid it on thick enough. And thank you for helping to prove my point. The only time a DU round vaporizes is when it... you know... slams into something at high speed. Considering anyone in the vehicle when it is hit is going to die a pretty quick death, I doubt they have time to get cancer. The uranium in a DU round is completely encased in a sheath (sabot) that makes up the outside of the munition. Even if you abrade the outside of a DU round, you will not generate any uranium laced dust or gas.

Cheers...

 

[kyleb]

I'm sorry, I didn't clarify my point; the stuff isn't water by any means. Obviously inhaling the gas directly off a vaporized DU round is a serious health risk; so when you vaporize enough of it into the air over the landscape and eventually an unhealthily dose of the stuff is bound to wind up inside peoples bodies. The dangers of water are far cry from those of radioactive heavy metals.

 

[hitssquad]

inhaling the gas directly off a vaporized DU round is a serious health risk; so when you vaporize enough of it into the air over the landscape [...] eventually an unhealthily dose of the stuff is bound to wind up inside peoples bodies.

The latter does not follow from the former.

 

[hitssquad]

Alternate routes of DU aerosol exposure

The only time a DU round vaporizes is when it [...] slams into something at high speed.

Another route of aerosol exposure is the manual clearing of jams in automatic cannons that fire DU rounds.

And yet another route of exposure is the incidental burning of DU ordnance depots. There was such a fire during GW1 at a DU ammo depot in Doha.
http://www.google.com/search?q=DU+fire+doha

Here is a report of another DU fire, this time in 1999:
http://www.cadu.org.uk/info/nuclear/3_4.htm

 

[SK]

Another route of aerosol exposure is the manual clearing of jams in automatic cannons that fire DU rounds.

Pretty much impossible, DU is used in penetrators who don´t come into contact with the barrel of guns but are saboted (M829 and M919) or contained in the bullet as a smaller diameter core (PGU-13).
The only way for aerosol exposure at the gun firing DU ammo would be a fatal barrel burst and the like, but that´s pretty rare and will have several more ill effects on the firing platform.

/edit: As for the "Journalist" Bob Nichols:

This story is about American weapons built with depleted uranium components for the business end of things. Just about all American bullets, tank shells, missiles, dumb bombs, smart bombs, 500 and 2,000-pound bombs, cruise missiles, and anything else engineered to help our side in the war of us against them has depleted uranium in it. Lots of depleted uranium.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/071304Nichols/071304nichols.html
It never ceases to amaze me how supposed "Journalists" can write down crap like this which is fundamentally wrong (as everyone googling for 3 mins can find out).

 

[russ_watters]

It never ceases to amaze me how supposed "Journalists" can write down crap like this which is fundamentally wrong (as everyone googling for 3 mins can find out).

Speaking of crap, did you read the BBC article posted on the last page? It contains The Most Ironic Thing Ever Written.

A 1995 report from the US Army Environmental Policy Institute, for example, said: "If DU enters the body, it has the potential to generate significant medical consequences."

You don't say?!

 

[kyleb]

I don't see the irony there Russ, could you elaborate?

The latter does not follow from the former.

I don't see how you can argue that. The logic holds true for fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides and the like; what makes DU exempt?

 

[russ_watters]

I don't see the irony there Russ, could you elaborate?

Its irony via unintentional, self-evident understatement: 'a bullet in the chest might be harmful - especially if it tears a big hole in your heart.'

 

[kyleb]

That is more like irony via avioding the intent; the report was obviously referring to less forcefull ways in which the substance might enter the body, such as though inhalation or ingestion

 

[russ_watters]

That is more like irony via avioding the intent; the report was obviously referring to less forcefull ways in which the substance might enter the body, such as though inhalation or ingestion

(well, the meaning isn't clear - there are a fair number of people with more or less permanent shrapnel wounds. But...) Yes, I know: that's why it was unintentional. That's what makes it so funny! You have heard of "irony", haven't you? Definition:

-The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
-An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

 

[kyleb]

Yeah, its like rain on your wedding day; right? :tongue2:

Seriously though, the apparent and intended meaning are the same unless in this situation unless one makes a contious effort to avoid that meaning.

 

[russ_watters]

Seriously though, the apparent and intended meaning are the same unless in this situation unless one makes a contious effort to avoid that meaning.

Considering that the normal way metal from a bullet or shrapnel enters your body is through a bullet or shrapnel wound and that there are a fair number of vets with permanent imbedded shrapnel, its not a stretch to say the quote was worded too loosely. ie, the following quote in the same article in which both meanings are relevant:

Dr Kilpatrick said a study that had followed 90 US Gulf War veterans exposed to the dust and to shrapnel from DU rounds in "friendly fire" incidents had found no DU-related medical problems. [emphasis added]

 

[hitssquad]

The dangers of water

The dangers of water are far cry from those of radioactive heavy metals.

Do you know what 10,000-year flood levels are? If you don't, neither do most persons who live below them.
http://www.usgs.gov/ppp2000/forum8.html

--
Currently 85% of Presidentially declared disasters in the United States are related to floods. Floods are also the deadliest natural disasters, killing 140 Americans each year.
--



The section "What will happen when a comet or asteroid strikes the Earth?" from this link...
http://personals.galaxyinternet.net/tunga/I3.htm

...talks about realistic tsunamis with deepwater heights of over a mile and runup heights several times that. The Indonesian tsunami that killed 200,000 to 300,000 had a deepwater height of only 60 centimeters.

--
In deep water the impact tsunami height might be several thousand feet high for a K/T size impactor, but the height will increase dramatically as the waves reach the shoreline because the wave slows in shallow water and the energy becomes more concentrated. The impact tsunami may produce several mile high waves that could travel several hundred miles inland.
--



When dams fail, people die:
http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/aug1975.htm

--
The August 1975 Disaster

Some brave souls worked in waist-deep water amidst the thunderstorm trying to save the embankment. As the dam began to disintegrate one of these brave souls, an older woman, shouted "Chu Jiaozi" (The river dragon has come!) The crumbling of the dam created a wall of water 6 meters high and 12 kilometers wide moving. Behind this moving wall of water was 600 million cubic meters of more water.

Altogether 62 dams broke. Downstream the dikes and flood diversion projects could not resist such a deluge. They broke as well and the flood spread over more than a million hectares of farm land throughout 29 counties and municipalities. One can imagine the terrible predicament of the city of Huaibin where the waters from the Hong and Ru Rivers came together. Eleven million people throughout the region were severely affected. Over 85 thousand died as a result of the dam failures. There was little or no time for warnings. The wall of water was traveling at about 50 kilometers per hour or about 14 meters per second. The authorities were hampered by the fact that telephone communication was knocked out almost immediately and that they did not expect any of the "iron dams" to fail.
--

 

[FredGarvin]

That dam failure was the number one engineering disaster on a show on the science channel not too long ago. Those numbers are staggering.

 

[Astronuc]

FYI, Depleted Uranium Health Effects

Depleted uranium is not a significant health hazard unless it is taken into the body. External exposure to radiation from depleted uranium is generally not a major concern because the alpha particles emitted by its isotopes travel only a few centimeters in air or can be stopped by a sheet of paper. Also, the uranium-235 that remains in depleted uranium emits only a small amount of low-energy gamma radiation. However, if allowed to enter the body, depleted uranium, like natural uranium, has the potential for both chemical and radiological toxicity with the two important target organs being the kidneys and the lungs. The most likely pathways by which uranium could enter the body are ingestion and inhalation. The relative contribution of each pathway to the total uptake into the body depends on the physical and chemical nature of the uranium, as well as the level and duration of exposure.

http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/guide/depletedu/health/index.cfm

 

[talkin56]

There is still Science..empirical facts that can be found..yet when they are out of the comfort zone many dispell them as conspiracy. Could it be possible that for capitalistic gains of large oil corporations and defense contractors that we would use munitions that are very effective, yet endanger our own troops. Do factories endanger their workers, giving OSHA payoffs ?..Well, the truth on DU is on a grander scale but is the same thing. We are nation building for oil under the guise of spreading freedom. I have never seen "insurgents" interviewed on the news, see Gulf War Veterans tell of their malformed children on shows addressing VA support/or lack of support. I have links on the dangers of DU..There is a Uranium Medical Research Facillity that has been pleading with our government to get more sensitive testing, do more testing and realize lower levels of DU over a lifetime damage the phosphorus in the DNA and internal organs. Short high level exposure can leave a front line shoulder with internal changes that result in death. Of course the VA is not anxious to link an efficient weapon with horrific effects. I am the wife of a Veteran Service Officer and he is having problems getting the multiple facial reconstructions of a WWII veteran paid for due to "SKIN" not being on their list of effected organs for coverage. Now, do you think carrying the injured and dead civilians away from GRound ZEro in Hiroshima would effect someone ? ..Just like the link in a post above by the Gov. ...They don't think it really effects anyone...and won't pay for it like they initially did not pay for Agent Orange victims..Corporations fueled by Capitalistic Greed love to adopt the "who me ?" approach. This is known..so how come it is hard, even considering Agent ORange that we are not suspicious of govt publications minimizing the danger ?

Could it be it is out of our comfort zone..and not until our grand child has 3 fingers or a facial malformation will we be alert enough to pay attention ?. (If science is not enough..lets try the politicians human interest approach)

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/236934p-203326c.html

I hope it doesn't take that to view scientific information and listen to previous inspectors and get facts. If Facts disagree with Bush, Kerry, and Congress (Our capitalistically owned players in this country)..can't they still be facts ?

Let me know..hell, if they can't be facts, I will just watch tv and get the hypnosis too ! I would be just grinning and happy about bringin all that freedom at the end of a gun barrel..hey and I would be a lot happier..but lying to myself..Have we gotten that stupified ?

Just my thoughts..Talkin56

For news and commentary see www.axisoflogic.com

 

[Rejjeye]

The use of Depleted Uranium Munitions or DUMb as I like to call them, will kill us all, even if we do not participate in Our Illustrious Leader's wars.

Those that support it's use, either actively or passively not caring about it one way or another, will have hell to pay after the deaths of billions if not trillions of people. That crap is going to be around for a long long long time and those that think the Middle East is a long way from downtown where ever had better think again. The wind carries. That crap is going to be around for a long long time, i.e., it has a 4.5 billion year half life.

It's use is a crime against nature.

 

[faust9]

The use of Depleted Uranium Munitions or DUMb as I like to call them, will kill us all, even if we do not participate in Our Illustrious Leader's wars.

Those that support it's use, either actively or passively not caring about it one way or another, will have hell to pay after the deaths of billions if not trillions of people. That crap is going to be around for a long long long time and those that think the Middle East is a long way from downtown where ever had better think again. The wind carries. That crap is going to be around for a long long time, i.e., it has a 4.5 billion year half life.

It's use is a crime against nature.

So is cadmium--are you waving signs and cry foul on the internet because of NiCads? The 9 or so heavy metals found in common black ink are just as destructive as DU(DU is more dangerous as a heavy metal than as a radio active substance). Soldiers are more likely to be exposed to toxins from the powder used to propel a bullet than to be subjected to DU exposure. Soldiers and civilians in Iraq are more likely to suffer adverse effects of burning oil fileds(remember the first Gulf war, and the occasional oil field fires which still occur). Oh, you know that 4.5 billion year 1/2life? What exactly does that tell you? What if I told you about common items you encounter with higher and or lower 1/2 lives? Which would you be more afraid of?

Me, give me the 4.5 billion year 1/2 life of DU over the adverse effects of cadmium or the 5.26 year 1/2 life of Co-60(found in cobalt blue paint and blue chine ware) or the 5730 year half life of C14 or the 22.3 year 1/2 life of radioactive lead, or the 7x10^8 half life of U235(commonly associated with calcium deposits such as egg shells and coral) or even the 1.2x10^9 half life of potassium-40(comprises .6% of potassium, found in bananas). Face it, you are decrying DU because it is radioactive without fully understanding what that means. Longer half lives are less dangerous. Alpha decay is generally less dangerous(fear the sun more than incidental contact with an alpha emitter). These weapons do not "vaporize"(boiling point of uranium is about 3000 degrees C, U-O is about 4500 and Uranium alloy's is in the range of 3300 degrees) as has been characterized here. These weapons are not ceramic U-O compounds--they are uranium metal allows. They are much much more dangerous as heavy metals; however, we are subjected to heavy metal sources all of the time--and are usually oblivious.

Another thing, do you have copper pipes in your house? You should see how much damage a little copper or copper alloy can do to an eco system. In the ocean, copper is very detrimental to invertibrates(coral, shrimp, and the like).

Well, I'm too tired to carry on. If you have real, factual data to back up your claims(not there are more woundeds Gulf war I/II vets--we've developed systems and armors to help SAVE the lives of combat wounded since Viet Nam) then please I'd like to see. I'd like to see evidence to link DU with the hell fire and brimstone it's been linked with. Also, when yo give us this evidence make sure to include data covering the cases of DU exposure state side and its effects(the military practices with live fire weapons all the time).

 

[Rejjeye]

I found this post on a forum where I sometimes lurk. After you have listened to the radio program referenced here, it may clear up some of your misconceptions about Depleted Uranium Munitions.

TheStripey1 wrote:
I found this archived radio program on one of the other forums where I post... this is a recent show and has several of the heavy hitters involved in the anti-DU movement, including but not limited to Doug Rokke, Bob Nichols, Loren Moret and Susan Riordan...

I've read some of this material before, but... it is a whole different ballgame to actually hear these experts talk about DU...

Just hit Play Now! beside this show...

X-Zone Radio Archives

March 24, 2005 - Thursday - DEPLETED URANIUM: CAUSE & EFFECT- Dr. Doug Rokke - Pentagon's man in charge of Depleted Uranium Project and Clean Up, Leuren Moret - Famous former Nuclear Weapons Lab assistant who has spoken in over 42 countries on US Uranium Weapons - Dennis Kyne - After 15 years in the US Army, he knows the story of war and learned the hard way how to Support The Truth, Bob Nichols - Writer, Project Censored Award Winner, he has written Uranium Weapons materials and articles for hundreds of newspapers, magazine, radio and television shows, Karen Parker - A veteran American lawyer at the UN, she wrote the book on Uranium Weapons Law, Susan Riordan - Famous Canadian Uranium Weapons celebrity.

 

[kyleb]

So is cadmium--are you waving signs and cry foul on the internet because of NiCads?

We have safe safe disposal procedures for NiCad batteries for a reason; if were were vaproising tons of the suff across our landscape, woudln't you cry foul?

 

[Rejjeye]

The radio program is four hours long. Perhaps, faust is still listening to it and has had his mind changed by what he has learned from it.

On the other hand, perhaps he doesn't believe experts in their field and prefers to speculate or believe what the government tells him about it.

Being a newbie here, I don't know any of you or your politics.

 

[faust9]

We have safe safe disposal procedures for NiCad batteries for a reason; if were were vaproising tons of the suff across our landscape, woudln't you cry foul?

Ah, the cry of a demagogue. "Millions of tons are killing babies all over the world! For the love of innocent babies do something before the evil destructive DU vapor clouds rain down death on all!" Well, as I said above, DU doesn't "vaporize". DU is used as a pencil-like sabot(a bullet within a bullet) designed to pierce and ricochet within an armored vehicle. It's not intended to kill by the vapors. The hunk of heavy metal rattling around inside a steel box is what kills. "Vaporizing" or whatever you want to call it would defeat the purpose of such a weapon. You don't want to poke a couple of holes in a steel box and hope the occupants die 30 years later from GI cancer or throat/lung cancer. You want them dead immediately.

As far as NiCads go, what's to stop an innocent child from opening one up and dieing from the toxic chemicals inside? What procedures are in place at landfills to prevent Joe Schmo from throwing NiCads away?

What about bleach?

What about those copper pipes I asked about before?

What about PVC?

What about bananas?

What about paper mills?

Your entire argument is based on emotion and a lack of knowledge about radioactive substances. DU is more dangerous as a heavy metal than as a scary-scary "radio active" isotope.

Now, what would you prefer? 1000's of soldiers killed or a few enemy soldiers killed? DU can be cleaned up. You can pick up DU sabot's and not worry. DU is wrapped in a metal jacket which blocks alpha emission (The US military--as far as I remember-- doesn't even require dosemetry to handel DU rounds). The US military--in Hawaii at least--does require rad stickes on fire alarms because of a tiny tiny alpha emitter found inside. In fact Squadron seven went so far as to require rad workers to replace the batteries for a while... That is how the US military handles radioactive substances--yet it doesn't required dosementry for handling of DU rounds. Hmmm I wonder why? Oh I know, Du rounds don't even emit alpha's unless the du is exposed. DU doesn't build up in vulcan cannons or seawiz cannons.

Anywho, This is another thread I'm done with. Quit falling back to the emotional respone and start looking at this froom a scientiffic stand point.

 

[Davorak]

I do not know if I should post this, this thread does not seem to be getting any where. I found an article by Leuren Moret one of the these 'experts' on DU.
article
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MOR407A.html
It is scary when Bush's quote is the one I agree with.
This seems to be the report that is to blame for part of this misconception of DU.
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/DU-Radiological-Toxicity-WHO5nov01.htm

The oxide particulates may be much more refractory to dissolution than the metal, if they are primarily composed of UO2. Refractory particles inhaled at the time of their production or subsequently, as a result of resuspension, could be of greater significance radiologically than through the chemical toxicity of their uranium content. This is because such particles can be retained in various organs and tissues, including the respiratory and reticuloendothelial systems, irradiating their surroundings. If such particles are leached only slowly, they will contribute to only a limited degree to an increase of uranium concentrations in the kidneys.

The distribution and retention of inhaled radioactive refractory particulates has been studied extensively. In particular, a great deal of work has been undertaken on high-fired PuO2. Particles, with aerodynamic diameters of up to a few tens of micrometres are readily inhaled. Particles with aerodynamic diameters of more than a few micrometres are mainly deposited in the upper part of the respiratory tract (the nasal passages, trachea and larger bronchi) and are largely cleared by mechanical action on a time scale of a few hours. Smaller particles penetrate more deeply into the lungs and sub-micrometre particles are deposited mainly in the respiratory tissues (the pulmonary parenchyma) comprising the bronchioli and alveoli. (ICRP 1994)

Bold add.
They have the dangers switched in this report. Also they are comparing U238 to P238 but neglect to mention the half lifes Pu-238 with its 87.8 years. Du's half life is 4.5 billion years.

These ultra-fine particles may be more soluble in physiological fluids, thus creating a local environment of enhanced uranium concentration in the cells proximal to the particle of DU-oxide. In this respect it is notable that DU-UO2 2+ cation is capable of transforming human osteoblast cells in culture to a tumourigenic phenotype (Miller, Fuciarelli et al. 1998). Similar transformation can be achieved with nickel and, to a lesser extent, with lead, leading to the conclusion that this transformation may have little to do with the radioactivity of DU. This conclusion is confirmed by the small fraction (0.0014%) of cells hit by alpha particles at the uranium concentrations used.

Here the report changes its mind and admits that DU might not be that radioactive, but then lead on to:

It is relevant to note that nickel is an established carcinogen (IARC 1990) and has been shown to induce a genomic instability similar to that induced by radiation (Coen, Mothersill et al. 2001).

So out with DU, out with Pb, and out with Nickel too.
The article seems to be mostly hype too me. I did n ot see an argument that made DU more dangraous then lead or Nickel.

 

[faust9]

Yes, and they also neglect the decay energy for PU-238 is about 10x greater than that of U-238. Go figure, release a highly charged particle with more energy and it does more damage. Release more of these particles in the same time span and get more damage.

 

[Davorak]

Thank you another reason why the article is fluff and that is all anything in this subject seems to be when it takes the stance the DU is a Real hazard.

 

[Davorak]

They also assume in there calculation that 50% is acts as a class M radioactive matrial.
Class M is a gamma ray producer with few alpha particle the exact opposite of U238.
http://www.cab.cnea.gov.ar/residuos/CC2003/003-SecB.pdf

 

[kyleb]

Ah, the cry of a demagogue. "Millions of tons are killing babies all over the world! For the love of innocent babies do something before the evil destructive DU vapor clouds rain down death on all!"

I didn't say anything about killing babies, so maybe you should take your own advice.

Quit falling back to the emotional respone and start looking at this froom a scientiffic stand point.

:grumpy:

 

[russ_watters]

The radio program is four hours long. Perhaps, faust is still listening to it and has had his mind changed by what he has learned from it.

On the other hand, perhaps he doesn't believe experts in their field and prefers to speculate or believe what the government tells him about it.

Chances are, no one is going to listen to 4 hours of that - if you have any facts to present, please do. Your posts appear to reflect some common misconceptions, ie: long half life=bad. In fact, the longer the half-life, the less radioactive something is. Also, this was an interesting comment:

Those that support it's use, either actively or passively not caring about it one way or another, will have hell to pay after the deaths of billions if not trillions of people.

Um, a trillion people?

 

[faust9]

I didn't say anything about killing babies, so maybe you should take your own advice.


:grumpy:

No, you still tried to use emotion to make your point by saying "if were were vaproising tons of the stuff across our landscape, woudln't you cry foul?" Granted you didn't say babies, but I used a little literary tool called hyperbole to highlight this use of emotion.

 

[brewnog]

They have the dangers switched in this report. Also they are comparing U238 to P238 but neglect to mention the half lifes Pu-238 with its 87.8 years. Du's half life is 4.5 billion years.

So what?

Is the use of the word "billion" supposed to incite reactions of fear here?

 

[faust9]

So what?

Is the use of the word "billion" supposed to incite reactions of fear here?

Are you serious?