Is Depleted Uranium Really a Problem?

[kyleb]

No, you still tried to use emotion to make your point by saying "if were were vaproising tons of the stuff across our landscape, woudln't you cry foul?" Granted you didn't say babies, but I used a little literary tool called hyperbole to highlight this use of emotion.

No emotion there, I asked you a simple question. Would you not cry foul if we changed our method of disposing of NiCad batteries to heating them to the point where they become gas and letting that gas loose all across our landscape? It is a yes or no question, would you please answer it that way?

 

[faust9]

No emotion there, I asked you a simple question. Would you not cry foul if we changed our method of disposing of NiCad batteries to heating them to the point where they become gas and letting that gas loose all across our landscape? It is a yes or no question, would you please answer it that way?

Then your question is inherently flawed because DU rounds don't vaporize[an emotional term]. DU vapor isn't spread across the landscape[an emotional concept]. Du alloy does not turn into some evil gas[an emotional idea]. So if you want to ask a question then feel free by all means; however, I'll not answer an inherently flawed question. Would you not cry foul if an ax murderer was chopping up babies with a rusted ax on the lawn of the white house with Bill Frist and Tom Delay dancing naked around an open BBQ pit? My question just as flawed as the one you asked because we all know ax murderers prefer sharpened blades, and we all know the energy required to "vaporize" a metel is well in excess of that generated in an impact(even for liquid Hg).

[edit] To be more precise: the energy converted to heat upon impact.

 

[kyleb]

Then your question is inherently flawed because DU rounds don't vaporize[an emotional term].

If anything is an emotional term in there it is the word "don't." http://www.usafp.org/PDA-Files/Databases/Radiological-handbook-tagged.pdf

DU is useful in kinetic-energy penetrator munitions as it is also pyrophoric and literally ignites and sharpens under the extreme pressures and temperatures generated by impact.

With enough presure and heat, anything will burn. So how about that NiCad disposal method, yes or no?

 

[faust9]

If anything is an emotional term in there it is the word "don't." http://www.usafp.org/PDA-Files/Databases/Radiological-handbook-tagged.pdf

With enough presure and heat, anything will burn. So how about that NiCad disposal method, yes or no?

From your own source:

"Depleted uranium munitions on the battlefield do not cause a significant radiation hazard, although if vaporized and inhaled, they do pose the risk of heavy-metal toxicity to the kidneys. Materials such as industrial radiography units, damaged medical radiotherapy units, and old reactor fuel rods can be responsible for significant local radiation hazards."

If being the operative word. And look what sources they mentioned.

"DEPLETED URANIUM Depleted uranium (DU) is neither a radiological nor chemical threat. It is not aweapon of mass destruction. It is contained in this manual for medical treatment issues. DU is defined as uranium metal in which the concentration of uranium-235 has been reduced from the 0.7% that occurs naturally to a value less than 0.2%. DU is a heavy, silverywhite metal, a little softer than steel, ductile, and slightly paramagnetic. In air, DU develops a layer of oxide that gives it a dull black color. "

Hmmm, not a radiological threat.

"DU is useful in kinetic-energy penetrator munitions as it is also pyrophoric and literally ignites and sharpens under the extreme pressures and temperatures generated by impact. (The fact that tungsten penetrators do not sharpen on impact—but in fact mushroom—is one reason they are less effective for overcoming armor.) As the penetrator enters the crew compartment of the target vehicle, it brings with it a spray of molten metal as well as shards of both penetrator and vehicle armor (spall), any of which can cause secondary explosions in stored ammunition."

It melts, it doesn't boil--huge difference. Vaporization is converting a liquid or metal into a gas. DU essentially shears as it penetrates until it completely pierces armor. It melts though it doesn't "vaporize". Read above: shards of penetrator as well as molten metal. The "secondary" effects pose more of a risk than those posed by DU. Toxins from burning plastic and artilary propelents are more dangerous in the short and long term.

"After such a penetration, the interior of the struck vehicle will be contaminated with DU dust and fragments and with other materials generated from armor and burning interior components. Consequently, casualties may exhibit burns derived from the initial penetration as well as from secondary fires. They also may have been wounded by and retain fragments of DU and other metals. Inhalation injury may occur from any of the compounds generated from metals, plastics, and components fused during the fire and explosion. "

Seems like a rather localized event. Inside of an armored vehicle and all.

"Radiation from DU DU emits alpha, beta, and weak gamma radiation. Due to the metal’s high density, much of the radiation never reaches the surface of the metal. It is thus “self-shielding.” Uranium-238, thorium-234, and protactinium-234 will be the most abundant isotopes present in a DU-ammunition round and its fragments. "

"Internalized DU Internalization of DU through inhalation of particles in dust and smoke, ingestion of particles, or wound contamination present potential radiological and toxicological risks. Single exposures of 1 to 3 μg of uranium per gram of kidney can cause irreparable damage to the kidneys. Skeletal and renal deposition of uranium occurs from implanted DU fragments. The toxic level for long-term chronic exposure to internal uranium metal is unknown, but no renal damage has been documented to date in test models or Gulf War casualties. The heavy-metal hazards are probably more significant than the radiological hazards. For insoluble compounds, the ingestion hazards are minimal because most of the uranium will be passed through the gastrointestinal tract unchanged. This may not be the case with inhaled DU, as heavy metal may be its primary damaging modality. The normally issued chemical protective mask will provide excellent protection against both inhalation and ingestion of DU particles. "

Goes back to DU is worse as a chemical than as a radioactive material. Kidney damage is a result of heavy metal poisoning. Nickel, copper, and lead will do the same thing BTW.

"BIOLOGICAL DOSIMETRY Physical dosimeters may misrepresent the actual radiation dose and may not be available in a combat or accident irradiation incident. It is important to assess the biological response to an absorbed dose of ionizing radiation in order to predict the medical consequences. The absorbed dose and the fraction of the body exposed should be determined with the highest degree of accuracy available. General Differences of 10% in absorbed dose can produce clearly observable variations in biological response. Hematopoietic recovery in heavily irradiated areas of the body will be possible if a sufficient number of stem cells survive in unirradiated or mildly irradiated portions of the hematopoietic system. Knowledge of the heterogeneity of the absorbed dose is particularly important with respect to medical treatment decisions for patients exhibiting radiation-induced bone-marrow syndrome. Cytokine therapy will stimulate proliferation of spared stem cells, but in cases of whole-body stem-cell sterility, bonemarrow transplant may become necessary. A crude estimate of absorbed dose can be obtained from the clinical presentation and assessment of the response of actively proliferating cell systems to radiation. Uncertainties in dose estimates arise largely from the high variability between individuals and other factors such as infection. Generally, the sensitivity of these bioindicators is poor, and given the transient nature of the signs and symptoms in sublethal doses, their clinical usefulness is limited. Biological dosimetry is recommended to support medical treatment decisions. Reliable biodosimetry is indicated to validate lowdose exposures in occupational radioprotection cases. The analysis of chromosomal aberrations in peripheral blood lymphocytes is widely used to assess radiation dose. Even in partial-body exposures, chromosome damage is an excellent indicator of the absorbed dose. Many types of chromosomal aberrations may appear in lymphocytes following exposure to radiation. Dicentrics (chromosomes with two centromeres) are biomarkers for ionizing radiation exposure. The incidence of dicentrics in blood lymphocytes for the general population is 1 in 1 x 103 metaphases. Human T-lymphocytes have a long half-life, and a small proportion of them survives for decades. The frequency of dicentrics following exposure remains fairly stable up to a few weeks. After acute partial-body exposure, the irradiated lymphocytes rapidly mix with unirradiated blood, and equilibrium is reached within 24 hours. "

Not specifically about DU but rather exposure to radiation (see above sources).

"DEPLETED URANIUM Depleted uranium (DU) emits limited alpha, beta, and some gamma radiation. DU does not cause radiation threat. It is found in armor-piercing munitions, armor, and aircraft counterweights. It is readily detectable with a typical end-window G-M (Geiger-Mueller) counter. Inhaled uranium compounds may be metabolized and result in urinary excretion. Inhalation of DU oxides may occur during tank fires or by entering destroyed armored vehicles without a protective mask. Absorption will be determined by the chemical state of the uranium. Soluble salts are readily absorbed; the metal is not. DU fragments in wounds become encapsulated and are gradually metabolized, resulting in whole-body distribution, particularly to bone and kidney. In laboratory tests, DU does cross the placenta. No renal toxicity has been documented to date. TREATMENT: Sodium bicarbonate makes the uranyl ion less nephrotoxic. Tubular diuretics may be beneficial. DU fragments in wounds should be removed whenever possible. Extensive surgery solely to removeDUfragments isNOTindicated. All fragments greater than 1 cm in diameter should be removed when the procedure is practical. Laboratory evaluation should include urinalysis, 24-hour urine for uranium bioassay, serum BUN, creatinine, beta-2-microglobulin, creatinine clearance, and liver function studies. "

So bad it can wait to be removed when practivcle.

Like any heavy metal DU attacks the kidneys and bones. Soft tissue is destroyed by radiation. Gonads, eyes, bladder are targets for radiation, not kidnets and bones. DU is bad because it is a heavy metal--it's no worse then lead or the other heavy metals that have been mentioned.

 

[kyleb]

So does all that quoting and bolding mean you would be willing to get together so we could vaproize some cadmium and mabye throw in something that emits some alpha radiation, and have you huff a bit of it up? :tongue2:

 

[franznietzsche]

Um, a trillion people?

:rofl: :rofl:

Ah, I've missed this forum. On a good day, its just like TD, except with more terminology in common with reality.

 

[hitssquad]

It's easy to kill trillions of people

Those that support it's use, either actively or passively not caring about it one way or another, will have hell to pay after the deaths of billions if not trillions of people.

a trillion people?

One million premature deaths every year for one million years would add up to one trillion premature deaths. One thousand premature deaths every year for one billion years would add up to one trillion premature deaths.

It's easy to kill trillions of people, Russ.

 

[russ_watters]

One million premature deaths every year for one million years would add up to one trillion premature deaths. One thousand premature deaths every year for one billion years would add up to one trillion premature deaths.

It's easy to kill trillions of people, Russ.

Sure, you just need to make some assumptions about the longevity of the species and the magnitude of the "problem"...

 

[Ba]

So does all that quoting and bolding mean you would be willing to get together so we could vaproize some cadmium and mabye throw in something that emits some alpha radiation, and have you huff a bit of it up? :tongue2:

Alpha radiation, I'll be sure to bring a dust mask. Alpha radiation can be stopped by a sheet of paper.

http://www.orau.gov/reacts/alpha.htm

Cadmium, it already exists as a dust just like the uranium.

What happens to cadmium when it enters the environment?
Cadmium enters air from mining, industry, and burning coal and household wastes.
Cadmium particles in air can travel long distances before falling to the ground or water.
It enters water and soil from waste disposal and spills or leaks at hazardous waste sites.
It binds strongly to soil particles.
Some cadmium dissolves in water.
It doesn't break down in the environment, but can change forms.
Fish, plants, and animals take up cadmium from the environment.
Cadmium stays in the body a very long time and can build up from many years of exposure to low levels.

We don't know if humans get any of these diseases from eating or drinking cadmium. Skin contact with cadmium is not known to cause health effects in humans or animals

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts5.html

 

[kyleb]

Alpha radiation, I'll be sure to bring a dust mask. Alpha radiation can be stopped by a sheet of paper.

Me too; but I'm curuous to see if faust9 would be willing to go without inorder to back up his position.

As for cadmium, just like any heavy metal:

Acute exposure causes pulmonary edema, which may result in death. The most serious consequence is cancer (lung and prostate). The first observed chronic effect is generally kidney damage. Cadmium also is
believed to cause pulmonary emphysema and bone disease (osteomalcia and osteoporosis). The latter has been observed in Japan ("itai-itai" disease) where residents were exposed to cadmium in rice crops irrigated
with cadmium-contaminated water. Cadmium may also cause anemia.
Metal fume fever may result from acute exposure. It includes flu-like symptoms of weakness, fever, headache, chills, sweating and muscular pain. Acute pulmonary edema usually develops within 24 hours and reaches a
maximum by three days. If death does not occur, symptoms may resolve within a week. Excretion of excessive low molecular weight protein in the urine is usually the first symptom of chronic kidney damage.

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/adper/cade_content/epi_manual/cadmium.pdf

 

[faust9]

Me too; but I'm curuous to see if faust9 would be willing to go without inorder to back up his position.

As for cadmium, just like any heavy metal:



http://www.idph.state.ia.us/adper/cade_content/epi_manual/cadmium.pdf

Wow, you just don't get it do you? You came into this thread decrying DU as the end all be all when I pointed out there are many heavy metals floating around you, more abundantly even on the battle field except inside of an armour vehicle that happen ed to be shot wherein the secondary toxin release is more deadly that the DU which this thread is about, and you continue to harp about cadmium. What's your point? I made mine--DU isn't nearly as bad as many make it out to be. In fact, I used your own source to show that the heavy metal effects of DU are more dire than the radiological, and your here harping about cadmium still. I used that literary tool--hyperbole(I mentioned this already) to show the doom and gloom crowd how silly they are and you've taken up the flag of cadmium. Well, might I recommend you start a cadmium thread so we can weigh the pluses and minuses of its use. Why are you picking on cadmium BTW---copper and nickel are just as bad. Pure aluminum can poison you as well but you seem to be fixated on one little nasty chemical.

Here, tell you what--I'd wear a mask to investigate a burned out armour vehicle. Not because I'm afraid of radiological DU but because I wouldn't subject myself to ALL of the deadly toxins found smoldering inside. Cripes R-12/134a break down into formic acid(I believe that's the compound too lazy to figure it out) at about 600 degrees. I'm not going to risk breathing that when peeking into a disabled vehicle. The DU is not spread across the landscape, it's contained. The rounds that hit mother Earth can be dug up and put in your pocket without fear of radiation poisoning. The dust within the and locally around a burned out vehicle becomes insignificant when one looks at an entire country side. The decay of U238 is insignificant and is not what kills people--heavy metal poisoning does.

Oh for your info, I've used thorium, californium, and americium sources among others, so a little bit of weak alpha emitter is not frightening to me. I'm more worried about skin contact with Cadmium(It's used on high power bus bars to improve conductivity and reduce corrosion) than ingesting or inhaling a few grams of DU. I know very little of the bad stuff you inhale stays in(you exhale most of it anyway and what you don't exhale get trapped by mucus). Chemicals that are immediatly toxic are why I'd wear a mask. I'd wear a mask but not because of DU alone.

 

[kyleb]

Wow, you just don't get it do you? You came into this thread decrying DU as the end all be all...

I get that you are dillisional, you made that blatently obvious here.

For the record, I came into this thread simply stanting my understanding of the usage of DU munitions, not making any decries as to the effects of them:

I'm pretty sure SK is wrong though, from what I understand the M1 Abrams tanks use DU-tipped rounds exclusively. Also, the claim that "DU ammunition is not effective" against "soft targets" comes off as downright absurd to me; I can't think of any reason DU would be less effective the conventional muntions.

 

[Rejjeye]

One million premature deaths every year for one million years would add up to one trillion premature deaths. One thousand premature deaths every year for one billion years would add up to one trillion premature deaths.

It's easy to kill trillions of people, Russ.

And here I thought this place was a math class and it took nearly a page for someone to reason it out... 4.5 billion years... it will kill for far longer than 4.5 billion, there's the next 4.5 billion to reduce it by another half... another 4.5 to reduce that by another half... so yeah, a trillion people.

listen to the program and HEAR the facts, turn it on while you wash the dishes or pull weeds. These are the experts, you can listen to their words of experience or rely on misrepresentations parroted by others.

your choice...

 

[Grogs]

And here I thought this place was a math class and it took nearly a page for someone to reason it out... 4.5 billion years... it will kill for far longer than 4.5 billion, there's the next 4.5 billion to reduce it by another half... another 4.5 to reduce that by another half... so yeah, a trillion people.

The reason it took so long for someone to come up with those numbers is because it's bad math! It's misleading at best and scaremongering at worst. Given the right assumptions, anything from heart attacks to running with scissors can be shown to cause a billion or even trillion deaths. You will find that most scientific studies will express this figure either in deaths per million population or deaths per year. In any case, using a number like one trillion is self-defeating. Almost anyone who heard it would know you were getting creative with the math and be a little skeptical.

The 4.5 Billion year half-life they're touting around is another good example of scare-mongering. A longer half-life means the element in question decays more slowly which in turn means that less radioactivity is emitted per gram of the substance.

Here's a little math to illustrate that last point:

$$^{238}U: half-life=4.47x10^9 years=1.41x10^{17} seconds; Isotopic\ mass=238.05$$
$$^{222}Rn: half-life=3.82 days=3.30x10^5 seconds; Isotopic\ mass=222.02$$

Source: Chart of the Nuclides, Fourteenth Edition

²²²Rn is Radon, a gas that's found in a lot of homes and has created quite a scare in the US in recent years.

1 gram of an Isotopic substance contains $$n=\frac{N_A}{A}$$ atoms, where N_A is Avogadro's Number and A is the Isotopic mass of the substance. Given n atoms and the half-life T_1/2, the activity (a) will be $$a=\frac{\ln 2}{T_{1/2}}*n$$ disintegrations per second

Working through the math, I come up with

a(²³⁸U)=1.24x10⁴ disentigrations per second
a(²²²Rn)=5.70x10¹⁵ disentigrations per second

5.70x10¹⁵divided by 1.24x10⁴ yields ~5x10¹¹. This means that 1g of ²²²Rn is 500 billion times more radioactive than ²³⁸U. To put it another way, 1g of Radon has about the same level of radioactivity as 500,000 metric tons of Uranium. Compare this to the (very likely inflated) estimates of 200-2000 tons of DU used during Gulf War 2.

For comparison's sake, a USGS study found that in 1982 Coal plants in the US released approximately 700-800 tons of Uranium into the atmosphere. This number is most likely higher today. We in fact drop as much Uranium on ourselves every year as was used in Iraq. An EPA study of this concluded that the radioactivity from this Uranium posed no health risk to the public at large.

listen to the program and HEAR the facts, turn it on while you wash the dishes or pull weeds. These are the experts, you can listen to their words of experience or rely on misrepresentations parroted by others.

your choice...

Yes, I choose to believe sound science instead of scaremongering. Anyone who shows an atomic bomb on a web page about DU is trying to scare you. Anyone making statements like 'it'll be there for 4 billion years!' is trying to scare you. Anyone showing pictures of 3-headed babies is trying to scare you. For the most part, these folks seem to be environmentalist who are against nuclear weapons proliferation. By applying the term 'nuclear' to DU, they can inspire a knee-jerk reaction of 'OMG, that's horrible!' from their readers without any support for their claims. If they can get enough people believing them to get DU weapons banned, that's just one more notch on their 'anti-nuclear' agenda.

Now that I'm done with that, here are a few amplifications/disclaimers:

First, I think DU can be harmful in high enough concentrations. This shouldn't really be a surprise. There are lots of harmful things out there. I think a soldier poking around inside of a tank that's just been shot with a DU round may inhale enough DU (and other crap) to adversely affect his health. These concentrations would be way, way above what the average soldier handling the DU was exposed to. That said, I don't really think that DU was a huge contributor to the health of most soldiers in the Gulf War. First, I don't think 50% of the soldiers in that war would have even been near DU rounds and second there were plenty of sources that (in my *opinion*) seem more likely, namely the oil well fires and accounts of bombed chemical weapons plants.

 

[russ_watters]

The reason it took so long for someone to come up with those numbers is because it's bad math! It's misleading at best and scaremongering at worst.

Misleading and scaremongering, but not bad math (I mean - a million times a million is a trillion :uhh: ) - but misleading and scaremongering (and meaningless, and, well, kinda lame) is enough.

I have to ask, just to be sure: Rejjeye, are you serious?

 

[Grogs]

Russ: You're correct. I don't mean 'bad' as in the math itself is wrong, rather it's the assumption behind the math that are bad.
In this particular case, we have to assume that:

1) DU poisoning is causing one million deaths per year
2) The human race will exist for the next one million years
3) In that time, nobody will take any action to prevent further poisoning (clean it up or at least move away from the source)

Here's another example of bad (not wrong) math:

The town of Clear Lake, Iowa, population 1000, had 3 deaths last year from toaster malfunctions. Extrapolating to the world population of 6 billion we estimate there were about ~18 million toaster-related deaths last year, which will lead to ~18 trillion deaths over the next million years or so. Somebody needs to do something about those things!

You don't have to look very hard to find the bad assumptions in the example above.

 

[faust9]

Russ: You're correct. I don't mean 'bad' as in the math itself is wrong, rather it's the assumption behind the math that are bad.
In this particular case, we have to assume that:

1) DU poisoning is causing one million deaths per year
2) The human race will exist for the next one million years
3) In that time, nobody will take any action to prevent further poisoning (clean it up or at least move away from the source)

Here's another example of bad (not wrong) math:

The town of Clear Lake, Iowa, population 1000, had 3 deaths last year from toaster malfunctions. Extrapolating to the world population of 6 billion we estimate there were about ~18 million toaster-related deaths last year, which will lead to ~18 trillion deaths over the next million years or so. Somebody needs to do something about those things!

You don't have to look very hard to find the bad assumptions in the example above.

LMAO--another way that bread has become the killer that it is. Bread+Toaster=18Trillion deaths!

 

[FredGarvin]

...we estimate there were about ~18 million toaster-related deaths last year, which will lead to ~18 trillion deaths over the next million years or so. Somebody needs to do something about those things!

I bet that damned white bread had something to do with it too...

Nice post Grogs. I needed the laugh (the point was well taken too).

 

[russ_watters]

You guys have seen the Simpsons episode where Homer's hand keeps finding its way into the toaster, right? Don't turn your back on it - it'll come after you...

 

[SK]

listen to the program and HEAR the facts, turn it on while you wash the dishes or pull weeds. These are the experts, you can listen to their words of experience or rely on misrepresentations parroted by others.

I already commented on that "expert" Bob Nichols. He wrote:

This story is about American weapons built with depleted uranium components for the business end of things. Just about all American bullets, tank shells, missiles, dumb bombs, smart bombs, 500 and 2,000-pound bombs, cruise missiles, and anything else engineered to help our side in the war of us against them has depleted uranium in it. Lots of depleted uranium.

This is so utterly wrong it´s not even funny. Him writing that can mean exactly two things:
A) He knows he´s lying and thinks the "story" is worth grossly misinforming the audience.
B) He is too stupid to do even the most basic research.
Whatever the reason is, it disqualifies this person from being called an expert, let alone even being taken serious.

 

[Davorak]

I think my posts and faust9 have shown many of Dr. Doug Rokke and Leuren Moret comments to be misleading at best. Bob Nichols has been addressed. So of Rejjeye's "experts" we have not directly addressed comments from:
"Dennis Kyne - After 15 years in the US Army, he knows the story of war and learned the hard way how to Support The Truth"
"Karen Parker - A veteran American lawyer at the UN, she wrote the book on Uranium Weapons Law, Susan Riordan - Famous Canadian Uranium Weapons celebrity."
At this point I think the majority of posters here just want to make sure faulty info is not spread about.

 

[talkin56]

If you believe Corporations and the VA won't steal your life..you are wrong.

This is talkin56..Greetings. I enter the news and commentary for www.axisoflogic.com. Today I entered an article in news-americas:

Don’t drink the water or Buy A House Near San Francisco Bay
Dennis Kyne, -SFBayView.com Apr 5, 2005 http://www.sfbayview.com/033005/dontdrink033005.shtml

When you pair this article showing how local officials and the government back each other up against the welfare of the residents, combined with the media being Corporate controlled, and them being the Winners so far in Iraq...Would you believe what they said on Uranium Munitions ?

My husband is a Veteran Service Officer..a person assigned to each county to help veterans apply for benefits. The VA did not recognize Skin lesions and tumors in its list of covered organs in reference to soldiers carrying the dead and dying away from the Atomic Bomb in WWII. One man here has had 5 facial reconstructions..a poor mountain man. Another, an ex CIA agent retired in Hawaii has had the same..Educated or not the Military has created a loophole when it sees REAL RISK...or a coverup like in the article above..

Why do you think the Military named it DE pleated ? Propaganda at its finest..Talkin56

 

[Davorak]

So you think it is not depleated? Do you think it is enriched before being sent to Iraq? What would be the point?