Destiny and predeterminism

which category are we in?


  • Total voters
    18
  • #26
phoenixthoth said:
In that scientists would say that we have no free will (ie we're in strong predetermination) because of some equations they've written on a blackboard after makinf some observations and that those equations happen to be deterministic, the conclusion is that what is being observed is deterministic (or predetermined, if you will). I object to such statements as this:
1. we've dropped a ball near a massive object a few trillion times
2. it always fell according to such and such equation(s)
3. therefore, it will always be this way near all massive objects across the multiverse.

In short, inductive reasoning, which is what the deterministic equations of science are based on, fails to convince me that we have no free will.


ok so now i see where you are.. apparently. If you're saying that you disagree with scientists who say we have no free will, then I agree with you. Just because nature can be relied upon due to laws doesn't mean we have no free will. To this day there is no equation in math or physics that describes the activity of the brain, or even how decisions are made. That's because not only is the brain largely complex, but mainly because we do have free will, and free will cannot be controlled.
 
  • #27
Dissident Dan said:
You see, free will is an illusion. All our decisions are determined by the laws of physics. There is no mind-body dualism. It's all the brain. Whatever course of action you take, it will be caused by the equal-opposite interactions that we all know about.


What? Where can I find this information on "all our decisions are determined by the laws of physics"?? Yes our brain resides in the physical world, but I have long thought that the mind (where thoughts rest) is not of this spatial world. I've always pictured "thought" as a totally different dimension, the dimension of mind. Show me where thoughts are in this world.. show me how the laws of physics determine my thoughts. Yes, thoughts are made by our brain making electrical impulses, but the fact that electricity is all our thoughts are is difficult. If it were so, then we would/should have made a robot already that has the ability to think. If we were so sure that our thoughts are determined by the laws of physics, then why are we searching the depths of the laws of physics? that implies that the laws of physics are somehow the controllers. they are making us search themselves? its circular, and redundant.
 
  • #28
1,605
2
Ad Infinitum NAU said:
ok so now i see where you are.. apparently. If you're saying that you disagree with scientists who say we have no free will, then I agree with you. Just because nature can be relied upon due to laws doesn't mean we have no free will. To this day there is no equation in math or physics that describes the activity of the brain, or even how decisions are made. That's because not only is the brain largely complex, but mainly because we do have free will, and free will cannot be controlled.

Yes.
no free will=strong predeterminism
limited free will=weak predeterminism
total free will=no predeterminsim.

The original post argues for limited free will. I can't agree with the statement something like this: the mathematical model we use for observations is deterministic (or random) and therefore what we observe is predetermined (or random).

This cropped up in the "does QM prohibit an omniscient being" thread:
If X is omniscient, then X has no free will. This is because if X is omniscient then X knows what it will do in 5 minutes and can't change his mind.

The contrapositive of that is this:
If X has at least some free will, then X is not omniscient.

The converse is evidently not true, though it is in our case.
 
  • #29
1,605
2
Ad Infinitum NAU said:
What? Where can I find this information on "all our decisions are determined by the laws of physics"?? Yes our brain resides in the physical world, but I have long thought that the mind (where thoughts rest) is not of this spatial world. I've always pictured "thought" as a totally different dimension, the dimension of mind. Show me where thoughts are in this world.. show me how the laws of physics determine my thoughts. Yes, thoughts are made by our brain making electrical impulses, but the fact that electricity is all our thoughts are is difficult. If it were so, then we would/should have made a robot already that has the ability to think. If we were so sure that our thoughts are determined by the laws of physics, then why are we searching the depths of the laws of physics? that implies that the laws of physics are somehow the controllers. they are making us search themselves? its circular, and redundant.

Exactly. I thought the "laws" "governing" electron behavior are not deterministic anyway, though it does not matter what the mathematical model is. Even if the model is perfect, isn't it probabilistic in nature? Can you or anyone predict what an electron does inside my skull when I think? And since it is impossible to predict, does that not mean that it's not determinisitic, that we don't have no free will? (Sorry for the double negative. We don't need no education :rofl: )
 
  • #30
526
0
Dan:

Dissident Dan said:
Firstly, you can't say, "Logically, this doesn't make sense," and be correct. You are making an inductive argument, not a deductive one. Therefore, you cannot make a claim as to whether or not it is logical. You can make a statement as to whether or not it is likely.

Secondly, I don't see what cycling and renewing has to do with a small percent of "existence" (matter and energy are what I presume you are referring to) being aware, cognitive personalities. Consciousness is a very complex (there is a staggering number of synapses in even the simplest brains) and fragile (guess which comes out in one piece when an animal and a boulder collide?) phenomenon.
I was using logical in as a common term, not within the academic context.

Secondly, you must admit that you are energy. Above and beyond the physical there is a life force (energy). within science, energy cannot be destroyed; ergo, you will continue to exist. as a spiritual energy force you will continue to roam the universe or choose to reincarnate.

most important, you, not your body, will continue to exist. the body will obey this law and decompose; you will not. IMHO!

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
  • #31
2,312
0
olde drunk said:
I was using logical in as a common term, not within the academic context.

Secondly, you must admit that you are energy. Above and beyond the physical there is a life force (energy). within science, energy cannot be destroyed; ergo, you will continue to exist. as a spiritual energy force you will continue to roam the universe or choose to reincarnate.

most important, you, not your body, will continue to exist. the body will obey this law and decompose; you will not. IMHO!

love&peace,
olde drunk
Hey, is it possible that energy has always been? Even before the Big Bang? And, say that the Big Bang was merely a matter of converting Energy into Matter?
 
  • #32
526
0
Iacchus32:

we have scientically shown that time is a man made measure. without time, there is an eternity of some sort. we have also proven the concept of infinity. ergo, we are eternally infinite.

i know that this is overly simplistic and will annoy those that need an esoteric explanation. but, why avoid the obvious? K.I.S.S. (lol)!

love&peace,
olde drunk
 

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