Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Diebold breaches contract

  1. Mar 10, 2006 #1
    It frightens me how Diebold has been proven corrupt time and again, but that the electorate doesn't care.

    Now, Diebold is breaching contract with Leon County because Leon County showed that Diebold lied, and that the systems didn't meet federal guidelines (the feds should have caught those failures, but didn't) and so Leon County demanded upgrades - which Diebold refuses to provide.

    There is vote fraud news regularly. I don't know why everyone seems complacent about this. The hacks into Diebold have been proven time and again - they are recognized by officials at the highest levels of government, and yet the general populace has no knowledge of this, or perhaps no concern. Prove me wrong. Visit the links at the bottom.


    (FYI Michael Shamos and I had a brief email exchange a year ago. He is tough on Blackbox voting, and has championed electronic voting time and again, but even he acknowledges that the recent hacks into Diebold systems are valid and makes them unreliable.)

    Article continues at the link.


    There is also a more recent story on this issue here:

    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 10, 2006 #2


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    So if an election official solicits a study from conspiracy theory nuts, that makes the conspiracy theory nuts legitimate? I don't think so: that makes the election official a conspiracy theory nut.

    Sorry, after the lies BBV has published in the past, their allegations of lies by others prove hollow.
  4. Mar 10, 2006 #3


    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Yeah. It's all conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:
  5. Mar 11, 2006 #4


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Pretty much, yeah.
  6. Mar 11, 2006 #5
    What lies? References please.

    The tests were replicated by California, and the shortcoming (the hack) was acknowledged by Diebold.

    You have choice. You can:

    1. Decide that Diebold also buys into the conspiracy theory
    2. Recognize that Black Box Voting is right on this issue
    3. Continue to ignore it. This choice means that you don't care about democracy.

    Which do you choose?
  7. Mar 11, 2006 #6
    Also, you fail to acknowledge that Diebold breaches contract here.

    This may be similar to getting Capone on tax evasion, in terms of scale, but as breach-of-contract is the point of this thread, I would request that you address what that says about Diebold.
  8. Mar 11, 2006 #7
    Russ, You've been online but have not provided the references I've asked for. Until you provide them, I conclude that you made up the statement that BBV lies. Did you make it up intentionally?

    Tsu: The use of the phrase "conspiracy theory" is entirely innappropriate. None of this issue is "conspiracy theory." Black box voting is a consumer advocacy group. They publicize what they learn about shortcomings in electronic voting machines, and push for paper trails and hand counts. This is hardly an unreasonable position, particularly given:

    (1) the Government Accountability Office's conclusion that electronic machines are vulnerable http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05956.pdf

    (2) Three different hacks, at different levels of clearance, over the last two years, each verified independently and replicated and recognized by states election boards across the country (for the latest hack see here: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13410061.htm )

    (3) Other vote fraud news - there are headlines every week or two showing corruption within the companies, lying from the companies to their customers (Diebold employee manual says to "say anything to promote the product," infamous memos about delivering elections to one candidate or another, exit polls that do not match poll tapes, virtually all errors going to a single candidate, etc etc etc --- it is in the news *all the time.*)

    I have no doubt that Russ (et al) would be happy to conclude corruption in many types of companies. But somehow, the idea that the voting in our country is corrupt, is something that won't be considered. Goddammit, it's the basis of our society. How anyone can be so irresponsible as to not consider the possibility in light of the evidence - Well it's true what they say that such people don't deserve a democracy. When these people have children who inherit our debt and a war-torn world, I hope they will realize their lack of willingness to consider this issue may have played a part in how the world is being shaped.

    Here are some recent mainstream headlines, to illustrate the point about this being in the news all the time:

    I wish people like Russ would stop being childish (namecalling, head-in-the-sand etc.). I wish he could see how childish he is being. I provide referenced sources from the US government (for crying out loud) including references to Michael Shamos who has appeared in front of senate panels supporting electronic voting, but who concludes that Diebold is not certifiable. Shamos has no love for BBV, and supports electronic systems! He is hardly a conspiracy nut.

    It frightens me that people in scientific disciplines don't even look at evidence, but merely knee-jerk a response about conspiracy theories.

    I have no hope that Russ will ever look at these things for my sake, but I do hope he wakes up and considers for himself, that his future is being written by people who may not have been chosen by the american people.
  9. Mar 11, 2006 #8
    Hi Russ! Could you please do us the honor of posting a link to these supposed "lies" that Black Box Voting.org has published? I'm certain that some here would love to see what you consider a "lie" and your 'reasoning' behind it. I know I sure would! I'll even help you by giving you the links to the 'Black Box Voting - Ballot Tampering in the 21st Century' book in pdf format so you don't have to search for it.


    Looking forward to your response!

    Pat A. Vesely ;-)
    Charter Member
    Black Box Voting.org
  10. Mar 12, 2006 #9


    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Apparently you haven't read the new guidelines for P&WA. If you choose to disagree with the OP, you too are expected to provide supporting evidence.

    I saw an incredible article about e-voting, but there wasn't an active thread at the time so I didn't post it or save it. However, there's a lot of information out there from credible sources for those who with an open mind (like a parachute a closed mind isn't worth much) and those who want to ensure democratic processes in our country. For example this article that was published by PC World:


    The issue of electronic voting and unacceptable probability for fraud is only one of many issues, thus the least of my worries. I always say no empire can collapse unless deteriorating from within first. Therefore we are our own worst enemies, and the naysayers who are either in denial or complacent are why our country has been going down the toilet.
  11. Mar 12, 2006 #10
    The Maryland House of Representatives is a bunch of conspiracy nuts.


    I am glad to see that this issue is getting serious coverage.

    SOS: I am curious why you think that e-voting is the least of your concerns. If you consider that many politicians may be in office illegitimately, and if these officials are reponsible for everything from picking representatives to the UN to picking Supreme Court justices, then doesn't vote fraud become enmeshed in the very *basis* of all the things that are problematic in the country today?
  12. Mar 12, 2006 #11


    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    The e-voting problem is a problem--I don't mean to belittle it. But it is not the only problem with fair elections. Dirty politics, such as what Shrub did to Ann Richards on the way to the Governors Mansion, then what he did to McCain in the Republican primaries, then what Jeb and Katherine Harris did to help him in Florida. And all the other tactics such as redistricting, placing gay marriage props on the ballot (religious organizations endorsing Bush from the pulpit), and outright voter intimidation/misinformation, not to mention the 'K' Street project headed up by "The Hammer" Tom DeLay and Rick Santorum to direct lobby funds to Republican candidates. That's just in regard to election reform issues.

    Yet Tom DeLay was just chosen by the Republicans in Texas to run again in 2006, and the Republicans in the RNC have shown tremendous support for Bill Frist (Dr. Schiavo) to run as president in 2008 (and large support for Bush if he could run again!). What is wrong with people!?

    And these issues are all nothing compared to issues such as NSA spying, IMO. But it gets back to a deeper problem in our country at the root of it all, what Al Gore refers to as lack of Rule of Reason:


    So let's say we get the voting machine matter all cleared up. How do you think people will vote if they believe Saddam was personally responsible for the 9-11 attack? We have bigger problems in our country, believe me.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2006
  13. Mar 12, 2006 #12
    I agree with what you're saying, I suppose. I think the electronic machine fraud is a *new* problem, whereas the other problems were present before, and in that sense deserves more attention because it shouldn't be tolerated.

    I wonder if people can think beyond their immediate environment. Maybe we're too limited. One more indication that there are too many people on the planet - we evolved in small tribes, where we could see first hand what was going on. Maybe representative government on a continental or global scale is hopeless.

    We didn't evolve with spin doctors and propaganda about events on the other side of the planet. In a way I want to rail at the american people for not being responsible about learning something of these issues. On the other hand maybe we aren't capable of it. You're above average intelligence, and so am I, and yet I doubt even either of us know as much as we perhaps should on all the issues that are going on.

    I had no idea Delay was just selected again. Jeez louise.

    Edit: I also think people believe that about Saddam, because of bush. I think his speeches are intentionally obfuscating. If Gore had the presidency, and had acted differently after 911, then people wouldn't link Saddam to 911. We'd still be at the mercy of our own inability to think beyond our environment, but you could argue that the wrong 2000 election result led to people believing what they do about Saddam.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2006
  14. Mar 12, 2006 #13


    User Avatar

    In keeping with the PWA guidelines would you please provide a reference for the part I bolded.
  15. Mar 12, 2006 #14
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2006
  16. Mar 13, 2006 #15
    more conspiracy theory nuts: :rolleyes:

    House Judiciary Committee, John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich.)


    December 23, 2004 letter from ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich.) to the president of Triad Election System.

    Triad had Remote Access to Machines

    Michigan Congressman calls for FBI investigation into Ohio election
  17. Mar 13, 2006 #16


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Pattylou, it was your thread and you acknowledged that you had been mislead:

    You posted:
    And then I pointed out that the votes were recovered and you posted:
    Now, I haven't been able to find the original reference (still looking) to verify what was actually said and later references (such as in the book) do reflect the fact that the error was corrected. Regardless, the intent was to mislead you into thinking fraud had occurred and in that BBV was successful. You believed something that was wrong because BBV mislead you (also, that link you provided - it doesn't mention the fact that the error was corrected, leading you to believe it wasn't).

    Also, direct lies are something conspiracy theorists try to avoid, while being as misleading as possible. Direct lies are too easy to prove, whereas Michael Moore School of Video Editing type deceptions are "merely" intentionally misleading. Either way, the goal is to get you to believe something that is either flat-out untrue or, at the very best, that the evidence does not support.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2006
  18. Mar 13, 2006 #17


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Glad to have you aboard!
  19. Mar 13, 2006 #18


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Regarding my core claim, that BBV is a conspiracy theory site:


    Feature #1 is the key feature of this issue and BBV's game:
    They also specifically list this issue as a conspiracy theory issue.

    If you guys would like to turn this into a thread about whether or not BBV is a conspiracy theory site (or, more generally, that the 'Bush-Stole-the-2000-Election' issue is a conspiracy theory) or split it or start a new thread, I'd be more than happy to go through the issue.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2006
  20. Mar 13, 2006 #19


    User Avatar

    So apart from an error which was rectified and an article on Wiki which could have been written by yourself there is actually no evidence to support your claim. :rolleyes:

    What was that you were saying about misleading statements??
  21. Mar 13, 2006 #20


    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Fortunately for me, pattylou herself is the evidence! She was mislead.
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?

Similar Discussions: Diebold breaches contract