Disclosure project

  1. Howdy.

    This is my first message to this board.

    Anyone have visited link which is my title?

    How much there is reliablity in Mr. Steven M. Greer sayings?

    There is some impressive marginal of allkind of generals and other bigshoemen, who past work many so called secret programs.

    I found one link, where Greer is listed just one ufo cultic lunatic

    Some people stills trust his sayings, even those who bunk other ufo stories.
  2. jcsd
  3. He's credible, just look at the names hes collected and the people willing to back him up, that should count for something.
    The ufo page about Greer you posted up is bunk, he states that Greer is a liar and weaves fancifal stories without ever explaining what it is he is lying about.
    In other words the page only amounts to 'Greer is a liar because i say he is'.
    The so called 'stories' Greer weaves are backed up by respected ex-military personnel, with alot to loose by lying.
    Id sooner take their word over some guy having a one-sided rant on a webpage. :tongue2:
  4. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    Very few people with credibility consider Greer to be credible.

    edit: ehh, not strong enough. Greer is a second order crackpot, meaning he's considered a crackpot by many other crackpots. He makes a lot of claims and says he has evidence - he even parades out mute witnesses - but never provides anything real.

    Read some of the quotes on the sample witness testimony page and ask yourself: what do they actually say? The answer is, not much.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2005
  5. once again, meaningless statements with nothing to back them up, 'hes considered a crackpot by many other crackpots' which, when you get down to it amounts to nothing more than calling him a weirdo. Although im sure in Russes case anyone remotely connected with ufos gets tarred with the crazy brush so we probably should take his remarks too seriously.
    btw over 100 witnesses publically willing to testify what they've seen before congress is far from mute, thats as vocal as it gets. And ive explained before Greer claims pretty much nothing, he lets his findings speak for themselves and draws very little conclusions from them which is the beauty of the project. The testimonys speak for themselves.
    But im not going to go round in circles on this one, hes got alot credible witnesses to make statements about government involvement in ufos. Either you think they're all lying and risking their reputations for nothing and ignore it, or you put two and two together an conclude that large numbers of people with much too loose wouldnt parade around silly lies and just maybe they're worth listening to.
  6. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    Well, we agree on one thing:
    It certainly is the beauty of it: if you make no claims, you're debunk-proof.
    The result, however, is a nice book with a pretty cover, which claims nothing (nothing specific anyway - there are, of course, implied claims and general claims) and is therefore meaningless. The general claim is this:
    So lets examine the testimony and see if any of it supports that claim...

    HERE are the witness testimony samples. While I wouldn't expect him to give away his best testimony, I would expect the samples would say something. These statements use a whole lot of words to say nothing.

    The first excerpt says "there is a serious possibility" that "should be the subject of rigorous scientific investigation" - it makes no claims and provides no evidence.

    The second is six whole paragraphs that boil down to 'the government can keep secrets.' I agree - but so what? It makes no claims and provides no evidence regarding UFOs.

    The third is a guy who says he was scared about a document. He says nothing about its content. Once again, he makes no claims and provides no evidence regarding UFOs.
    Lying is only necessary if you actually say something. As I have shown, these witnesses say nothing of substance, so lying is irrelevant.

    I could start my own project about the Loch Ness Monster. I'd pay witnesses $1,000 each for the effort of talking to me and ask them to comment on the Loch Ness Monster. Responses would be things like 'the US Navy cannot deny the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.' True, but like the above, utterly meaningless.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2005
  7. This is my whole problem with your deunking of the discloure project, a couple of witness testimonys and you think you have read enough to conclude that Greer is a crackpot and there is nothing more to be seen or done.
    Read all the witness testimonys and then we can talk, what you're doing is pretty much reading the first page out of several hundered and concluding that there is no need for further investigation by congress. Im sure i dont have to tell you how unscientfic that is. Read all the data and then draw conclusions. If you like you can private message me and i can send you a 100 plus pdf document which gives a very good summary of all the testimonys. Then if you want to talk about the evidence and its merits id be quite happy to : p
  8. Are you implying that witnesses are being bribed/paid off for their statements? if so do you have any evidence or good reason to believe this?
  9. I've always thought Doctor Steven Greer M.D. was the most creditable
    person around with his DISCLOSURE PROJECT. I have his book and have
    heard many of the retired military men speak and say they are ready to
    tell of their experiences with UFOs. The only disappointment is nothing
    seems to be happening. (Many claim the Government KNOWS that UFOs/
    alien spacecraft do exist but are not ready to admit it for many reasons.)
    How could ALL of the reports of UFOs be fake? Sure .....many reports
    and photos are fake and exist only to sell books and videos,ect. but are
    all the sightings just people mistaking airplanes, falling stars and pranks by
    kids the only things moving throught our airspace?
  10. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    Overdose, can you provide anything that would suggest that further reading would be anything other than a waste of my time? 'Don't judge until you've read everything,' besides being completly unhelpful, is classic buy-my-book-crackpottery. The point of an abstract, for example, is to enable the reader of a paper to decide if it is worth reading further. Greer has not provided anything to suggest that there is a reason to read his book: should we really take him at his word?
    Not at all - but expert witnesses don't testify unless they are paid. That's how they make a living. Sometimes, they even get paid just to put their name on the witness list as a ploy - a bluff.
    I urge you to apply some critical thinking. Where have you heard anyone ever claim that all of the reports of UFOs are fake? No one ever does that. What skeptics say is that no compelling evidence has been presented - and your statements above imply that this is true of Greer's "Disclosure Project" as well. Its a lot of people (or, perhaps, just Greer speaking for a lot of people) who say they have things to say but never say them.
    On what do you base that?
    Why doesn't that activate your crackpot detector?
    In all likelyhood, yes. Venus, actually, is the most common.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2005
  11. You cant be bothered to read the pdf like i suspected you wouldnt, i could provide you with some copy n pasted testimonys out of the pdf to encourage further reading, but my question is would i be wasting my time? are we simply going to go round in never ending circles of you calling Greer a crackpot without having read his work?
    The absurdity is in the time its taken you to question the validity of the work and slate greer you could have actually read it and have an informed opinon!
    lets not forget you were crying 'crackpot' before youd even read any of the testimonys, you were probably calling greer a crackpot before youd even logged onto to the site. I have to keep reminding myself that im actually posting on a science forum where people are supposed to weigh up the evidence before deciding if something is compelling or valid.

    well if you're allowed to make statements without backing them up then id say thats nonsense and wildy speculative, ironically something you seem to be accusing greer of.

    LOL how would you be in a position to know who is saying what when youve never read the full witness testimonys? Who exactly are these people you think are claiming to have things to say but 'never say them'.
    what are you talking about?

    Crackpottery has nothing to do with it, congress isnt going to investigate government knowledge of ufos overnight, greer has a hard task ahead of him. Congress may never even lauch an investigation, time will tell. The things that greer wants public arnt the kind of thing the US government is keen to get out.

    Anyway this is boring and nothing is being learnt...you cant teach those who've already made up their minds :zzz:
  12. Chronos

    Chronos 10,266
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  13. Ivan Seeking

    Ivan Seeking 12,094
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    Greer is hard to figure. When he first started getting attention he seemed pretty reasonable. Then he went completely off the deep end. I have never been sure if its a scam or total belief in the most extreme conspiracies. To me, as time goes by he appears more and more con man than devotee and true believer. For me the catch is always this: What is reasonable behavior for someone who believes or knows what he claims to.

    I'm not a Greer fan, but in his defense, even Senator Barry Goldwater believed in the government UFO cover up conspiracy. Ed Mitchell, who complains about Greer in one link, has also publicly stated there are small groups, operating outside of the government, who control the UFO information. "Maybe not the best people" in his own words or nearly so. Some of these seemingly absurd conspiracy theories begin in high places and filter down. Someone like Greer then gets all fired up without having any first hand knowledge. I can imagine that Greer gets conned and then just passes on the bogus information. Don't know.

    Oh yes, as for the photo, one needs to watch out for so called debunked UFO photos or claims, as one does so called genuine UFO photos and claims.
    Debunked, according to whom? Was it really the same photo. Who was there when Greer showed the photo? Was the conclusion in Bluebook certain or nebulous? I find much debunking of UFO claims as bad as some of Greer's claims. This is one reason that I ignore both.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2005
  14. In Gordon Cooper's book, Leap Of Faith, he talks about a good ol boy engineer from Tremonton Utah. He discusses this Tremonton guys viewing , close up of a large UFO. He and a friend were out on one edge of the valley up there, kicking around the ruins of an old cement plant, when he heard a loud engine starting up. He got such a close up look at how the turbines worked that he duplicated the thing, and made it in a barn. Welling was his name. Cooper went to Tremonton, and flew it.

    Cooper reported seeing UFO's with american pilots, in american flight suits, and some other class of machine, seen by a friend, that had no driver, but was a sentient craft.

    I do not believe in secrecy, at any level of government. I think it is all inside out. I think that we should have as much privacy as we like, and government should be utterly transparent. A mark of steadfast character is transparency, and clear purpose.
    All this secrecy is nefarious, and a result of economic interests driving the international presence of our government; so nefarious it has to be secret.

    Of course there is a huge coverup, many huge coverups. There are also a lot of preposterous tales floating around, the internet. They are interesting though, look up the Urantia Book, it is a large mystical text that claims to be of extraterrestrial origin. Urantia, supposedly is the name that outsiders call our planet, it means The Planet Of The Cross, because of our location in a cross-like constellation. Now it would be just another whack item, if the huge congregation had not just split, over an attempted takeover, by an American General.

    I am ever so aware that the Universe is utterly magical, I mean, really, the more we look, the more beautiful, and powerful, and mysterious it is. Things are plenty wondrous without Extraterrestrial space craft. You know, and I know that if their existence were hidden from the people of the United States, it would be stupidity parading as an exclusive domain of high intellect. Either that or they are in charge, and we are being spared the grim reality. Or the planet was sold for a few necklaces, some beads, and a couple of fancy shirts; and the inner circle of coolness, just hasn't figured that out yet.

    I will tell you this, in southern Utah, there are pictographs, of a special sort, I think they are ancient Uranium Miners, that is what they look like. They all have a big snake thing in them that looks like the loch ness monster. I am not kidding about this. Here.

    The loch ness thing is at the bottom of this one, toward the middle. There are a lot more of these figures, near the Black Dragon Uranium Mine, and they are ghostly, and amazing.
  15. PS These pictographs, are from approx 2000 bc, they are called Barrier Figures. No one knows who these entities were. There are huge panels of them in the San Rafael Swell, Buckskin Wash, Black Dragon Canyon, Sego Canyon is a little way over toward Colorado.
  16. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    Sorry, I missed the part about the pdf: russ_watters@lycos.com Just one quote with some substance would be a good start though. All I ask is one.
    You're misrepresenting the issue: I have read the work he provides free. If he wants me to pay for more, he needs to provide some substance to justify it. You're burden-of-proof shifting.
    My, you make a lot of assumptions. Don't forget we've had this discussion before and in a previous discussion I spent considerable time going through his site and posting my impressions. I've also looked at his other sites - the other crackpottery that he sells - free energy and UFO technology. I've also searched for the impressions of others about him - including finding evidence of fraud. Mr. Greer is an old and famous crackpot - this certainly isn't the first time I've heard about or read about him, and unless you have a short memory, you already know that.
    Read the statement I wrote: Just like the ones in Greer's project, it says nothing of substance. You can't back up or fail to back up a statement that doesn't say anything.
    Overdose, did you even read Ron's post? That was his impression, I was responding to. And why haven't you commented on the excerpts from Greer's site? You say I can't comment until I've read everything Greer has, yet you won't comment on the things that I have read. Why not address the information thats here on the table? Could it be because admitting that the 3 witnesses he provided as a teaser say nothing of value weakens his case considerably?
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2005
  17. Chronos

    Chronos 10,266
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    My turn to complain about not reading links. Mitchell complained about being cited as an advocate, which he is not. Another complained about Greer infringing on his copyrights, which Greer initially denied and an associate of his later explained as 'just a memory lapse'. Greer goes public with a well known hoaxed UFO photograph and won't even respond to questions about it. Six times, his SEAS 'company' has claimed to be ready to go to market with the latest 'free energy' device, and when asked about missing his own self-imposed deadlines, says 'it turned out to be nothing'. Running around signaling UFO's with flashlights and laser pointers is harmless fun, until you charge your followers for the privelege. He claims to know, and been recruited [unsuccessfully] by 'representatives' of MJ-12 and the Malta Knights, was trained in the art of remote viewing by a widely celebrated crackpot, telepathically communicates with aliens, and led a successful experiment in creating crop circles.

    Draw your own conclusions.
  18. Ivan Seeking

    Ivan Seeking 12,094
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    Not true. Mitchell is a UFO advocate. I can pm you his personal email if you wish.

    I'm only saying that going off the deep end can look like Greer. Beliefs are a powerful thing.
  19. Ivan Seeking

    Ivan Seeking 12,094
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    Crud! I was just going to send it but I may have deleted it... You can contact him here.

    I can't believe I might have lost this... I should have it but it may take a day or so. Hopefully its archieved. Anyway, he is quite open to discussion and can also be found at his discussion forums. I contacted the noetic institute because I didn't believe the Ed Mitchell at the forums is really THE Ed Mitchell. It is. He wrote back himself and invited further discussion.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2005
  20. Am I hearing that the laser blinding of Airline Pilots might be crackpot UFO enthusiasts, trying to phone home?

    Look at that possibility.
  21. Im not asking you to prove anything, just asking you to read a simple pdf document and to have have a full understanding of the material before dismissing its worth.
    "Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance" (as Einstein once said) i think would apply here.

    I remember the previous thread, you called Greer a crackpot initially and only after some persuasion decided to actually read his website.
    I also remembered you calling him a fraud and when i asked you to find me one instance of fraud all you could find was a webpage about how he once charged a group of people a small sum to join him in tracking ufos in a known location, which isnt fraud atall. Unless you could prove that he was purposefully leading them on a wild goose chase to rake in a few $'s. Which you arnt able to do, and given Greer's passion for ufo's it would be sensible to assume that he was geniune in looking for the ufos. You also as i remember seemed to think his charging people money for books/reading material was fraud, if thats the case then there are lot of fraudsters out there!

    I know it was a response to Ron's comment and your response to him was a further strange accusation against Greer which you have dodged and avoided to back up or explain when asked to. Your simply making things up to strengthen your argument which frankly beggers belief.

    I dont think the teasers are that great i'll agree with that but to say that they dont offer any motivation for further reading i personally disagree with. And since im in possesion of the full witness testimonys i have first hand knowledge that the statements on the site are mearly the tip of a large ice-berg.
    If Greer can be accused of anything poor promotion might be one of them i'll give you that.
    I'll send you the pdf or a link to it shortly to your email :wink:
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2005
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