Divide by zero?

  • Thread starter kant
  • Start date
  • #1
kant
388
0
For s=p/q


What happen when q is actually o? We are taugh in school mathematics that such propositive is 'undefine', but what is it really mean by 'undefine'? To me, this is unsatisfactory answer. Perhaps people can help me clearify this matter for me.

What i accept:

Imagine a object subdivide into many equal parts, then the size of each parts approach zero.


The converse is not true.

Mathematcally, if q is a number approaching 0, but not actually 0, then s would approach infinity, which to me is a contradiction of our normal intuition. if you divide a finite size object into an infinitly fewer and fewer equal parts, each parts would approach infinity. This would mean the parts of an object is greater then the object itself. This is a contradiction of intuition, so it must not be true.


Another way to look at it is this:

If q is actually 0, then s should be p.
Intuitively specking, if an object is divide by nothing, then the result should be the object itself.
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
mathmike
208
0
take 1 / .1 = 10

1 / .01 = 100

1 / .00...1 = 100...0

the closer trhe denominator gets to zero the closer the answer gets to infinity

therefore, if the den. is 0 the the answer is infinity
 
  • #3
Hurkyl
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
14,967
19
I remember a time (I think I was around 2) when I threw a tantrum because I thought 8*0 = 8. :biggrin:


Anyways, consider the following string:

"Blue English gazorninplat purple fruitcake is"

It's absolutely gibberish, isn't it?


That's what undefined means in mathematics. You've put symbols together that simply aren't allowed to be put together, thus the result is entirely meaningless.


In the specification for division, it says that the numerator shalt be a real number and the denominator shalt be a nonzero real number.

So if you try to put a 0 in the denominator, you get meaningless garbage.


Actually, if q is a variable denoting a real number, you're not even allowed to say "p/q"! In order for "p/q" to be a valid mathematical phrase, q has to be a variable denoting a nonzero real number.
 
  • #4
kant
388
0
take 1 / .1 = 10

1 / .01 = 100

1 / .00...1 = 100...0

the closer trhe denominator gets to zero the closer the answer gets to infinity

therefore, if the den. is 0 the the answer is infinity

^ this is of course obvious, and i mentioned it. it is unsatisfatory.
 
  • #5
kant
388
0
Hurkyl said:
I remember a time (I think I was around 2) when I threw a tantrum because I thought 8*0 = 8. :biggrin:


Anyways, consider the following string:

"Blue English gazorninplat purple fruitcake is"

It's absolutely gibberish, isn't it?


That's what undefined means in mathematics. You've put symbols together that simply aren't allowed to be put together, thus the result is entirely meaningless.


In the specification for division, it says that the numerator shalt be a real number and the denominator shalt be a nonzero real number.

So if you try to put a 0 in the denominator, you get meaningless garbage.


Actually, if q is a variable denoting a real number, you're not even allowed to say "p/q"! In order for "p/q" to be a valid mathematical phrase, q has to be a variable denoting a nonzero real number.


It is not garbage. I don t believe in meaningless mathematics. Perhaps it is a revelation into something deeper.
 
Last edited:
  • #6
tmc
290
1
Take any a in R
a/0=b
a=b*0
a=0
Obviously false, since not all numbers in R are equal to 0.
 
  • #7
es
70
0
Also, if we accepted the definition s=p/0 then division would not be 1-1.
s=p/0=p/1
 
  • #8
ComputerGeek
383
0
kant said:
For s=p/q


What happen when q is actually o? We are taugh in school mathematics that such propositive is 'undefine', but what is it really mean by 'undefine'? To me, this is unsatisfactory answer. Perhaps people can help me clearify this matter for me.

What i accept:

Imagine a object subdivide into many equal parts, then the size of each parts approach zero.


The converse is not true.

Mathematcally, if q is a number approaching 0, but not actually 0, then s would approach infinity, which to me is a contradiction of our normal intuition. if you divide a finite size object into an infinitly fewer and fewer equal parts, each parts would approach infinity. This would mean the parts of an object is greater then the object itself. This is a contradiction of intuition, so it must not be true.


Another way to look at it is this:

If q is actually 0, then s should be p.
Intuitively specking, if an object is divide by nothing, then the result should be the object itself.

I created an unordered co-set of numbers called the undefined set. it was just a goofy thing I did during my modern algebra class because I was board. I have a PDF of the description. since no one has done anything in it I made up my own Axioms and definitions. it was kind of weird because in this set, 0 is the multiplicative inverse of 1/0 and I denote 1/0 to be "u". It was kind of fun.
 
  • #9
Tide
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
3,089
0
kant,

Intuitively specking, if an object is divide by nothing, then the result should be the object itself.

No. The correct question would become "how many times does nothing go into the object?" That is what is meant by "divide by." Since you cannot specify the number of times 0 goes into p the division is undefined! :)
 
  • #10
benjamincarson
15
0
kant said:
It is not garbage.
It is...
kant said:
I don t believe in meaningless mathematics. Perhaps it is a revelation into something deeper.
It's not...
 
  • #11
Manchot
473
4
kant said:
It is not garbage. I don t believe in meaningless mathematics. Perhaps it is a revelation into something deeper.
Yes, it is meaningless. If I asked you what the prime factorization of pi was, would you not call me crazy? Prime factorization is only defined on the integers, so it doesn't make sense for you to find the factorization of a non-integer. Likewise, the multiplicative inverse of an element in a field is only defined for non-zero elements, and so division must be undefined for divisors which are zero.

Now, the question you are probably thinking is, "Why skirt the issue like this? Isn't that creating a hole in our mathematical theory?" While you can create a logically-consistent field with division by zero (such as with Riemann spheres), it would not have the same basic properties that our common notions of numbers have. Therefore, when mathematicians seek to define fields that apply to our world (such as the integers, the reals, and the complex numbers), it makes a lot more sense to leave division by zero undefined.
 
  • #12
kant said:
It is not garbage. I don t believe in meaningless mathematics. Perhaps it is a revelation into something deeper.

The question does go very deep, as you'll soon come across studying complex analysis, or modern algebra, or what have you. To the point: it's not just meaningless mathematics; it's not mathematics to say "what is 'p/0'"? Start from the algebraic definition of a/b; we define

c = a / b = iff b*c = a

But since 0*c is 0, clearly to say 0*c=1 or 0*2=1 or whatever has no meaning. So 1/0 or 2/0 have no meaning either. Division is a man-made concept, and we've only defined it over nonzero denominators. We like it that way; it's consistent with everything else we like. You could try to make a new "division" if you want; but it'll be ugly and conflict with many important axioms. You won't get the same "0" additive identity, for instance.

To the moderators - I offer this thread as further evidence that we need some new stickies in this subforum.
 
  • #13
kant
388
0
I am not going to reply to everyones post. It would just be a waste of my time. Thank you for all your replies. With that being said, i cannot accept anyone of the above answers. I know very well that for mathematics to be consistent, you simply cannot divide by zero, but my main concern is not the consistency of mathematical statements.
 
  • #14
arildno
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
10,089
135
kant:
Evidently you live in some fantasy world where you believe that "division" has some truer, deeper meaning than how mathematicians DEFINE it.
I would strongly suggest you change your attitude; that's the only way to learn real maths.
 
  • #15
Zurtex
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
1,120
1
kant said:
I am not going to reply to everyones post. It would just be a waste of my time. Thank you for all your replies. With that being said, i cannot accept anyone of the above answers. I know very well that for mathematics to be consistent, you simply cannot divide by zero, but my main concern is not the consistency of mathematical statements.
What is your concern then?

You come to a mathematical board, asking a question about why a statement is mathematically undefined and seemingly you do not want an answer that explains it.

1/0 in the field [itex]\left( \mathbb{R}, +, * \right)[/itex] (real numbers with addition and multiplication) is completely gibberish. Just as this would be:

[tex]++-11*/5^+1[/tex]
 
  • #16
Hurkyl
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
14,967
19
It is not garbage. I don t believe in meaningless mathematics. Perhaps it is a revelation into something deeper.

1/0 isn't meaningless mathematics: it's a meaningless string of symbols. As I stated, to be mathematics, the denominator of a real number division calculation has to be a nonzero real number. If the denominator is not known to be a nonzero real number, then it's not mathematics.
 
  • #17
HallsofIvy
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
43,021
971
kant said:
I am not going to reply to everyones post. It would just be a waste of my time. Thank you for all your replies. With that being said, i cannot accept anyone of the above answers. I know very well that for mathematics to be consistent, you simply cannot divide by zero, but my main concern is not the consistency of mathematical statements.

Okay, so you prefer mysticism to mathematics! I can live with that.
(Like Zurtex, I find it peculiar that you come to a mathematics board to annouce that you don't like mathematics!)
 
  • #18
yourdadonapogostick
270
1
mathmike said:
take 1 / .1 = 10

1 / .01 = 100

1 / .00...1 = 100...0

the closer trhe denominator gets to zero the closer the answer gets to infinity

therefore, if the den. is 0 the the answer is infinity
this is not true. [tex]\lim_{x{\to}0^+}\frac{c}{x}=+\infty[/tex]...x is never actually 0


edit: that limit is a good way to show why c/0 isn't infinity

[tex]\lim_{x{\to}0^+}\frac{c}{x}=+\infty[/tex]
[tex]\lim_{x{\to}0^-}\frac{c}{x}=-\infty[/tex]
[tex]\lim_{x{\to}0^+}\frac{c}{x}{\not{=}}\lim_{x{\to}0^-}\frac{c}{x}[/tex]
therefore, [tex]\lim_{x{\to}0}\frac{c}{x}[/tex] does not exist
 
Last edited:
  • #19
Werg22
1,427
1
Simple proof (by definition): imagine you have triangle with an angle theta. Now imagine the angle grows constantly. When it will reach 90 degree you will have two parallel sides, and both are infinite. Since we know that cos(90)=0, then x/infinity=0, where x is any positive integrer. If x/infinity=0, then x/0=infinity.
 
  • #20
bomba923
760
0
yourdadonapogostick said:
this is not true. [tex]\lim_{x{\to}0^+}\frac{c}{x}=+\infty[/tex]...x is never actually 0


edit: that limit is a good way to show why c/0 isn't infinity

[tex]\lim_{x{\to}0^+}\frac{c}{x}=+\infty[/tex]
[tex]\lim_{x{\to}0^-}\frac{c}{x}=-\infty[/tex]
[tex]\lim_{x{\to}0^+}\frac{c}{x}{\not{=}}\lim_{x{\to}0^-}\frac{c}{x}[/tex]
therefore, [tex]\lim_{x{\to}0}\frac{c}{x}[/tex] does not exist

If [tex] c > 0 [/tex], that is... :wink:

division by zero is undefined in the real numbers. There's really no arguing this.
I agree.
 
Last edited:
  • #21
shmoe
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
1,994
1
Werg22 said:
Simple proof (by definition): imagine you have triangle with an angle theta. Now imagine the angle grows constantly. When it will reach 90 degree you will have two parallel sides, and both are infinite. Since we know that cos(90)=0, then x/infinity=0, where x is any positive integrer. If x/infinity=0, then x/0=infinity.

If x is a positive real, x/0 is not infinity, it's not an apple pie, it's simply an undefined string of symbols (likewise for x/infinity). By (lack of) definition, division by zero is undefined in the real numbers. There's really no arguing this.
 
  • #22
Werg22
1,427
1
What is the importance to define x/0? Really there is no mathematical importance to this. It is completely irrevelant. See it the way you want.
 
  • #23
ia89sdfhau945jtnhgfi9784resdrryey5993ureuehyu3cf33ve3cyw3480eoikwekwei8eruhfbnfgh34uieng?
 
  • #24
HallsofIvy
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
43,021
971
Icebreaker said:
ia89sdfhau945jtnhgfi9784resdrryey5993ureuehyu3cf33ve3cyw3480eoikwekwei8eruhfbnfgh34uieng?


Well put! I believe it is in Voltaire's Candide that a character responds to a question in garbled Latin. When asked why he did not say it in French, he responds "I thought it appropriate to say that which I do not understand in a language I do not understand."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #25
Blahness
111
0
It's meaningless. No matter how many zeroes you have, you can't get a 1. Not even an infinite amount.
 
  • #26
HallsofIvy
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
43,021
971
Blahness said:
It's meaningless. No matter how many zeroes you have, you can't get a 1. Not even an infinite amount.

I'm sorry, what was this in reference to? I don't see any post in here talking about a number zeroes making 1.
 
  • #27
Blahness
111
0
Well, dividing 1 by 0 is asking how many 0's make a 1, correct?
 
  • #28
hypermorphism
506
1
Blahness said:
Well, dividing 1 by 0 is asking how many 0's make a 1, correct?
That's just an analogy. The mathematics behind the division is more precise about how the result is to be calculated, and is not worried about what it may represent in some model.
 
  • #29
HallsofIvy
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
43,021
971
Blahness said:
Well, dividing 1 by 0 is asking how many 0's make a 1, correct?

No, it's not. Dividing by 0 is not asking anything intelligible.
 
  • #30
radou
Homework Helper
3,134
8
what really is fascinating is the fact that people are always poking their noses in issues such as -the name of this topic-, pretending to search for some 'deeper' answers, and elevating topics such as -the name of this topic- to an almost metaphysical meaning. there is only one fact that is true: if you wan't to find answers releated to math, just read, read, and read. everything is perfectly defined, and, basically, there is no need for forums such as this one :)))
P.S. read.
 
  • #31
bomba923
760
0
radou said:
.. there is no need for forums such as this one ..
P.S. read.

Ahh, but I like PF :frown:
 

Suggested for: Divide by zero?

  • Last Post
Replies
5
Views
777
  • Last Post
2
Replies
55
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
14
Views
989
Replies
34
Views
1K
  • Last Post
Replies
6
Views
427
  • Last Post
Replies
2
Views
862
  • Last Post
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • Last Post
Replies
4
Views
549
  • Last Post
Replies
7
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
808
Top