Do engineering rankings matter?

[Connor]

I currently live in South Carolina and was thinking about going out of state to CU Boulder, but I'm concerned about tuition and really considering Clemson since it'll cost less. Do rankings for engineering really matter?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

At some point rankings of engineering schools might matter. But I think your real question is whether the difference in rankings between CU Boulder and Clemson will matter enough to your career to justify the difference in cost which would most likely be paid for by accruing debt. My answer to that question is a resounding NO!

Clemson's engineering program has an excellent reputation in the SE US. My two older children applied there and were accepted. We would have been very happy for them to have attended. The merit-based scholarships they offered fell short of covering the out-of-state (for us) tuition costs which is why they ended up attending a school of comparable quality in a different state. I may also note that we moved out of Colorado in 2013 specifically so that our children could gain residency in a state with better higher education offerings than Colorado. My wife and I felt that even though Colorado School of Mines and CU Boulder had excellent reputations at that point, that a high level of education was unlikely to continue after the legalization of marijuana. Pressure for faculty to pass all the pot heads would quickly erode academic rigor and by the time our children attended, the gifting of grades would reduce the value of degrees from those schools. Working as consultants in the SE, we know that employers often wonder whether graduates from Colorado schools chose them more for the dope smoking and partying opportunities than for real learning.

If you have any history of drug use, a decision to attend college in Colorado will be looked at by potential employers with extreme skepticism regarding your motives. Smoking pot does not make anyone a better engineer.

 

[jasonRF]

I agree with DrCourtney that accruing extra debt for a higher ranked school is not a good idea. Just remember that you do not know your cost to attend different schools until you are admitted and get your financial aid offers. Both of my neighbor's children attend private colleges because with the financial aid packages they ended up being much less expensive than the public universities in our state.

DrCourtney's comment about marijuana legalization is something I haven't thought about a lot, although I should now that my state has just legalized it and my elder daughter will be applying to colleges this fall. I suspect the freshman dorms at our public universities will be a little wild, unless she gets into the honor's college which has its own housing...

 

[Scrumhalf]

I think this depends a bit on what your academic plans are. I always feel that you should go to the best possible college you can afford for your final degree.

If you plan to go to grad school, then go to a decent undergrad school, do well on your GRE and try to get into a topnotch grad school.

As someone who runs a large engineering R&D department, I have NEVER worried too much about which state has what pot law when I am hiring people. What you did in school is what I am going to judge you on. Maybe this will be a moot point soon with the whole country heading towards legalization, but in my honest opinion, I wouldn't overthink the pot angle.

 

[Dr.D]

I think I would prefer Clemson to most schools in Colorado, so I advise you to stay where you are and get the best education possible there.

Who knows what goes into the "rankings"? Are they factors that are relevant for you, or not? I would never pay too much attention to rankings from any source. Just see if the school is well thought of in your area of interest, and if it is, then go for it.

 

[CrysPhys]

As someone who runs a large engineering R&D department, I have NEVER worried too much about which state has what pot law when I am hiring people. What you did in school is what I am going to judge you on. Maybe this will be a moot point soon with the whole country heading towards legalization, but in my honest opinion, I wouldn't overthink the pot angle.

Agree. CA has just come on board. So employers will nix grads from Stanford and Cal Tech? MA is tentatively scheduled to come on board in July. If it does, employers will nix grads from MIT and Harvard?

 

[Dr.D]

Agree. CA has just come on board.

"Come on board"? What are you saying here?

 

[CrysPhys]

"Come on board"? What are you saying here?

Retail sales of pot for recreational purposes in CA started Jan 1, 2018. Discriminating against students who attended school in states in which sales of recreational pot is legal seems a bit screwy to me.

ETA: When I was in college, the legal drinking age was more varied among states, some as low as 18. I seriously doubt employers took that into account when evaluating candidates.

 

[Dr.D]

Retail sales of pot for recreational purposes in CA started Jan 1, 2018. Discriminating against students who attended school in states in which sales of recreational pot is legal seems a bit screwy to me.

So you are saying that "come on board" means to legalize pot? Wow! Who knew??

If I were again in a hiring position (as I have been in the past), I would certainly want to find out about drug and alcohol use of prospective new hires. If they attended a school that was notorious for either, I would endeavor that much harder to find out about my prospective employee. What you describe as "discrimination" I would call "due diligence."

 

[CrysPhys]

So you are saying that "come on board" means to legalize pot? Wow! Who knew??

If I were again in a hiring position (as I have been in the past), I would certainly want to find out about drug and alcohol use of prospective new hires. If they attended a school that was notorious for either, I would endeavor that much harder to find out about my prospective employee. What you describe as "discrimination" I would call "due diligence."

Sorry for the confusion. "Come on board" does not specifically mean to legalize pot. I was responding to Scrumhalf's comment that the whole issue of which states legalize pot may eventually become moot since more and more states are legalizing it, coming on board the pot band wagon (or gravy train), so to speak.

 

[FactChecker]

If one wants to know about drug abuse, ask and test. I would not draw conclusions about a person because of the state he went to school in.

 

[CrysPhys]

If one wants to know about drug abuse, ask and test. I would not draw conclusions about a person because of the state he went to school in.

Exactly. Some employers (at least in the US) do require drug testing as a condition for employment. There would likely be lawsuits against employers who blacklisted candidates simply because they went to a school in a state that legalized pot.

 

[analogdesign]

I agree with Dr. Courtney. One thing, though, is if you can go to a school with a stellar reputation it really does open up doors (probably unfairly, but it does). I know that companies around me in California trip over themselves recruiting at Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, and a few others both for jobs and internships. If you go to a second-tier school, even one with a great reputation, the aggressiveness of the recruitment falls and you often have to find opportunities for yourself.

 

[Connor]

I agree with Dr. Courtney. One thing, though, is if you can go to a school with a stellar reputation it really does open up doors (probably unfairly, but it does). I know that companies around me in California trip over themselves recruiting at Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, and a few others both for jobs and internships. If you go to a second-tier school, even one with a great reputation, the aggressiveness of the recruitment falls and you often have to find opportunities for yourself.

So in other words since I choose to go to an in state college because it's not like I have a lot of money laying around to go to a school like Berkeley, MIT, CMU, etc. then I'm basically screwed when it comes to finding a job?

 

[analogdesign]

So in other words since I choose to go to an in state college because it's not like I have a lot of money laying around to go to a school like Berkeley, MIT, CMU, etc. then I'm basically screwed when it comes to finding a job?

That's not what I said at all. I went to a second-tier (but still well-regarded) state school and I've done fine in my career. What I'm saying is you get a lot more opportunity if you go to a top school. It is just the way it is. You can still find a job and if you're competent you have have a great career from almost any school. However, if you go to a place like Berkeley, MIT, or CMU you will have more opportunity knocking at your door and the network of relationships you make in school will be more valuable over time. That's all I'm saying.

 

[CrysPhys]

I agree with Dr. Courtney. One thing, though, is if you can go to a school with a stellar reputation it really does open up doors (probably unfairly, but it does). I know that companies around me in California trip over themselves recruiting at Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, and a few others both for jobs and internships. If you go to a second-tier school, even one with a great reputation, the aggressiveness of the recruitment falls and you often have to find opportunities for yourself.

<<Emphasis added.>> Are you saying that students should avoid going to a school in a state that legalizes pot? If so, that knocks out Berkeley and Stanford as of Jan 1, 2018, and MIT as of July 2018, if MA goes ahead with its plans.

 

[analogdesign]

<<Emphasis added.>> Are you saying that students should avoid going to a school in a state that legalizes pot? If so, that knocks out Berkeley and Stanford as of Jan 1, 2018, and MIT as of July 2018, if MA goes ahead with its plans.

My bad, I should have clarified that I agree with his first paragraph. I don't agree at all with this opinion about the legalization of pot.

The main thing I agree with him about was debt. With few exceptions if you go to a good school it doesn't matter if it is ranked 40 or 60 or 80 (it really makes no difference). Therefore, you should try to minimize debt while still going to a good school and that usually means the optimum solution is the main state school in your state.

If you're able to get into a school like MIT, CMU, Berkeley, Caltech, or Stanford, though, it is worth considering whether going into debt is worth the increased earning potential you have based on the contacts and opportunities you have by going there. For undergraduate Computer Science I would say definitely yes. For engineering I would say it probably makes sense (assuming you want to pursue these opportunities rather than finding a job in your home state). For graduate school, most students nowadays pay for the first year or so at Berkeley (and other UCs) and Stanford (most but not all) and then typically you get your tuition covered once you get hired by a professor as a research assistant. When I was going to graduate school only Stanford was known for making people pay but now it is much more common. I think if your goal is to maximize earning potential it is probably worth the investment.

That is what I was getting at.

 

[Dr.D]

The main thing I agree with him about was debt. With few exceptions if you go to a good school it doesn't matter if it is ranked 40 or 60 or 80 (it really makes no difference). Therefore, you should try to minimize debt while still going to a good school and that usually means the optimum solution is the main state school in your state.

I think this is absolutely the key advice. A good education at State U is worth more to most people than a poor education (because of being in too deep to compete effectively) at a big name school.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

If one wants to know about drug abuse, ask and test. I would not draw conclusions about a person because of the state he went to school in.

I would not draw conclusions regarding their personal drug use, but I do have concerns about the academic rigor of the programs in the long term. Mines and CU Boulder have no choice but to lower academic standards if they are going to maintain graduation rates with so many dope smokers on campus. Their reputation will suffer in the long run. Lots of college students doing drugs at those schools, in spite of the fact that it is still against federal law. Each school will need to decide whether to flunk the pot heads who do not meet their academic standards or whether to lower their standards to keep graduation rates high. Their reputations will catch up.

So in other words since I choose to go to an in state college because it's not like I have a lot of money laying around to go to a school like Berkeley, MIT, CMU, etc. then I'm basically screwed when it comes to finding a job?

Nope. Not at all. The best engineering school in the state is usually good enough. ABET accreditation is non-negotiable.

<<Emphasis added.>> Are you saying that students should avoid going to a school in a state that legalizes pot? If so, that knocks out Berkeley and Stanford as of Jan 1, 2018, and MIT as of July 2018, if MA goes ahead with its plans.

My bigger concern has been with CO, since I was there when it happened, saw the beginnings of the slide, and got my own family out of dodge before we were locked in (by in-state tuition). My own children will attend unis in states safely free from this folly for another decade.

I'm less worried about the grad schools, as the big boys (MIT, Stanford, etc) seem more resistant to lowering the bar there. More cost effective there. I bet my oldest (a physics major at a top 50 school) gets offers to PhD programs at MIT, Stanford, Princeton, and Harvard just like his mommy and daddy did.

 

[Connor]

Is it possible for me to just to finish my pre requisites at an out of state junior college, establish residency there, and then hopefully qualify for in state tuition?

 

[Scrumhalf]

Check with the school. I think states have a minimum requirement of something like 3 years residence to get in-state tuition.

 

[Connor]

I was also taking a couple of clep tests for calculus to get full college credit. Would that look bad on my transcript if i ever decide to apply to MIT or CMU for grad school? Also does it matter if I do extracurricular activities or just focus of grades and gpa?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I was also taking a couple of clep tests for calculus to get full college credit. Would that look bad on my transcript if i ever decide to apply to MIT or CMU for grad school? Also does it matter if I do extracurricular activities or just focus of grades and gpa?

Most of the selective schools we've looked at do not accept credit from CLEP testing. Check out the policies for the ones of specific interest to you. Once you earn your BS, how you earned specific course credit matters much less than the degree granting institution. If MIT or CMU (or whereever) accepted the transfer credit toward their degree, whether it was CLEP, AP, the community college down the street, or anything else is not very important.

Extracurricular activities matter much more when applying to undergrad institutions than when applying to graduate school. Most graduate school applications come down to: GPA, GRE scores, research accomplishments, and recommendation letters.

 

[Connor]

Most of the selective schools we've looked at do not accept credit from CLEP testing. Check out the policies for the ones of specific interest to you. Once you earn your BS, how you earned specific course credit matters much less than the degree granting institution. If MIT or CMU (or whereever) accepted the transfer credit toward their degree, whether it was CLEP, AP, the community college down the street, or anything else is not very important.

Extracurricular activities matter much more when applying to undergrad institutions than when applying to graduate school. Most graduate school applications come down to: GPA, GRE scores, research accomplishments, and recommendation letters.

So in other words I can receive credit for calculus by doing the clep test if I wanted to and it wouldn't matter when I apply to MIT for grad school? The only thing that matters is GPA,GRE, Recommendations, etc?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

So in other words I can receive credit for calculus by doing the clep test if I wanted to and it wouldn't matter when I apply to MIT for grad school? The only thing that matters is GPA,GRE, Recommendations, etc?

Yes, as far as the grad school application goes. BUT, in my experience only loser undergrad schools award credit for CLEP. A loser undergrad school will hurt you. (Ranked lower than 100 in US.)