Do not call your teddy

  • Thread starter wolram
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  • #76
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his seems to be the standard reply to religious apologists, even when it can be clearly demonstrated that religion is the primary incentive.
Then explain why educated Muslims do not conform to the view of extremists? Are they not Muslims at all?
Sure religion is an incentive, when it becomes contorted to mean something completely different or when what was written eons ago is taken word by word and applied to modern situations.
 
  • #77
dst
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That 30% could be construed to representation the worldwide percentage that follows similar beliefs.

You might argue that this is not the case and that everywhere else the percentage is lower, but then I would ask what in would make the muslim population in the UK more violent than everywhere else in the world.

I don't believe I was talking about Arabs...

P.S. That was a pretty picture.

You're using 0.038% of a population to describe more or less the eastern hemisphere (minuus china, india, etc) of this planet. There's a slight issue with that. Pretty picture indeed.

then I would ask what in would make the muslim population in the UK more violent than everywhere else in the world

The fact that there are only 1 or 2 generations of immigrants overall, who haven't yet integrated? Possibly the fact that they might see the "War on Terror" as a "War on Terra", and that it's their homelands being bombed under what they see as ridiculous pretexts? And of course, the herd mentality. Regardless of that, saying something on a survery is somewhat different from actually carrying that out. I'd love to see a survey of the other side - the number of people in the more developed parts of the world excluding central Europe, that wish to see the Middle East reduced to rubble. Somehow I don't think the results for that will be great either, particularly around Midwest America.


Kindly, reread my post. You will find that I never meant what you are implying. All I am saying is that the religion itself is not to be blamed, but other factors as I have pointed out. In the case of Islam the disparity is obviously very large. You can see for yourself that educated Muslims don't conform to the views of extremists(at least not in my country).

Aren't you talking about the idea of "more complaints over trivial things" from this group of people compared to others? I don't understand how religion even factors into that specific idea.
 
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  • #78
seycyrus
You're using 0.038% of a population to describe more or less the eastern hemisphere (minuus china, india, etc) of this planet. There's a slight issue with that. Pretty picture indeed..

No, I'm not using .038% of an entire population to suggest ramification on the entirety of the set.

I'm using 30% of a specific subset to suggest trends of a larger subset.

Ok, you don't find it troubling, fine.

I bet you'd be whistling a different tune if it was discovered that 30% of mainstream christirans in the UK thought it was ok to bomb abortion clinics.



the number of people in the more developed parts of the world excluding central Europe, that wish to see the Middle East reduced to rubble. Somehow I don't think the results for that will be great either, particularly around Midwest America.

Go take a poll yourself of ten of your friends. Report your results.

As for your your bigoted remarks about the midwest, I live on the east coast and still find them offensive.

Maybe all of the people YOU interact with are small minded enough that 30% of them would call for the destruction of the middle east, but that only means that YOU need ot devolop a higher class of friends and acquaintances.
 
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  • #79
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Then explain why educated Muslims do not conform to the view of extremists? Are they not Muslims at all?
Sure religion is an incentive, when it becomes contorted to mean something completely different or when what was written eons ago is taken word by word and applied to modern situations.

The reason that 'educated' Muslims are not extremists is because practice selective reading and have been cured by secularization, reason and science. Also note that the 9/11 hijackers where middle class, educated people. People in the top layer of Hamas have master degrees.

Religiosity is generally inversely proportional to education.

You are also assuming that the extremists somehow deviate from the "True" religion, when in fact, that is what the moderates are doing, ignoring commands to kill apostates, for instance.
 
  • #80
dst
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No, I'm not using .038% of an entire population to suggest ramification on the entirety of the set.

I'm using 30% of a specific subset to suggest trends of a larger subset.

Maybe 30% of such people who have similar backgrounds (Eastern immigrants, unintegrated, reasonably well educated - in short, "Western") would share the same views, but to say that's the case for 30% of a global population is quite a stretch.

Ok, you don't find it troubling, fine.

I bet you'd be whistling a different tune if it was discovered that 30% of mainstream christirans in the UK thought it was ok to bomb abortion clinics.

No, I have some faith in humanity and I don't like double standards. Why the comparison against christians, I don't really understand. Again, Christians are a ridiculously generic group. Why not a once plausible threat to the UK, like the IRA?

Go take a poll yourself of ten of your friends. Report your results.

As for your your bigoted remarks about the midwest, I live on the east coast and still find them offensive.

I'd say the same for your bigoted remarks about the eastern hemisphere. So now you understand that you can't generalise. Where did I get the idea for those "bigoted remarks"? Think-tanks like this: http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/ - that specific one called for George Bush to be president for life (the article was removed anyway - click). I guess I'm basing that remark on a stereotype, but tit for tat seems to be the rule here.

Maybe all of the people YOU interact with are small minded enough that 30% of them would call for the destruction of the middle east, but that only means that YOU need ot devolop a higher class of friends and acquaintances.

No need to get personal. My friends happen to be sane, so that would generally rule out 99% of what's been discussed here. I form my opinion of the Midwest through the only avenues I can - media. And when you have people enforcing creationism as "science", it doesn't look too good. So I'd say the bigotry comes from within. I didn't specifically mean the mid-west, but some of the Mid-west and some of the Bible Belt.


You are also assuming that the extremists somehow deviate from the "True" religion, when in fact, that is what the moderates are doing, ignoring commands to kill apostates, for instance.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from because it's a non-canonical punishment and comes from seriously deficient sources of the Abbasid era.
 
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  • #81
EnumaElish
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The difference being, I'm talking with respect to specifically the rioting people.
1. That was not at all clear from your post, and more importantly:
2. you did refer to a "baaaa" religion -- not a "baaaa" crowd.
 
  • #82
seycyrus
Maybe 30% of such people who have similar backgrounds (Eastern immigrants, unintegrated, reasonably well educated - in short, "Western") would share the same views, but to say that's the case for 30% of a global population is quite a stretch.

The Muslims in the UK are said to be the most tolerant, not the least. the stretch is leading in the other direction.

No, I have some faith in humanity and I don't like double standards. Why the comparison against christians, I don't really understand. Again, Christians are a ridiculously generic group. Why not a once plausible threat to the UK, like the IRA?

I raised Christians because we were talking about Muslims. That should be obvious.

I think it would be a fair assumption to state that the vast majority of active members of the Ira were proponents of bombing, just like I think it would be a fair assessment to make the same claim for active members alquaeda.



I'd say the same for your bigoted remarks about the eastern hemisphere.

You could, but then you would also be lying.

So now you understand that you can't generalise.

Oh, I've always understood that.

No need to get personal. My friends happen to be sane, so that would generally rule out 99% of what's been discussed here. I form my opinion of the Midwest through the only avenues I can - media.

I'm sorry. I did not mean to cast doubts on the source of your *scientific* information. Keep watching...

...So I'd say the bigotry comes from within. I didn't specifically mean the mid-west, but some of the Mid-west and some of the Bible Belt.

So you admit that your bigoted remarks were targeted against Christians.

Nuff said.
 

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