Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Do 'we' see the world as we assume it exists?

  1. Nov 23, 2003 #1
    http://www.sciencenews.org/20010310/bob9.asp

    If ultimately no evidence is ever found of the anticipated Higgs Boson or field, what are the chances that there is no reality for particles, matter, strong/weak forces, gravity, a universe with a border or edge or anything else except pure condensed energy dashing about within a heretofore unknown dimension?

    Then the question arises as to the nature or properties of energy?

    Can anyone reconcile the fact that life forms, human choice and intelligence arise spontaneously from primary particles?

    Do 'we' see the world as we assume it exists?

     
  2. jcsd
  3. Nov 24, 2003 #2

    Another God

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Gold Member

    no, but those materialists amongst us assume the world exists as we see it.
     
  4. Nov 25, 2003 #3
    Originally posted by anothergod

    "no, but those materialists amongst us assume the world exists as we see it."

    No, but the reality remains that so many unknowns facts persist for human explanation that from our point of observations they cannot be explained by any known theory that exists today. Sometimes it is helpful to get out of one's box and look around.

    If it weren't for men like Einstein, Boehr and others that looked at a very different reality, would we still be living in the macro world of Newton?

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2003
  5. Nov 25, 2003 #4

    Another God

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Gold Member

    Well, yeah, if it weren't for men like that, then no one would be pushing science forwards. But there will always be someone around to do it, and the problems faced by each theory are the fuel that makes them do it.

    We have moved on from the Macro world of newtonian physics because the theory wasn't perfect.
     
  6. Nov 26, 2003 #5
    there is no other way to view reality. all data is filtered by our minds, psyche and conciousness. in turn we project our beliefs outward which creates the reality we see or experience.

    in essence, we create our own reality,
    chet
     
  7. Nov 26, 2003 #6
    so, why don't you create a worm-hole to my office and tell me that in person? :smile:
     
  8. Nov 26, 2003 #7
    YO GUYBRUSH!

    I was just there! did you see me? feel me?

    sorry, but you scared me so much that i jumped back to my office.

    think bout it! you can doit!


    chet
     
  9. Nov 26, 2003 #8
    Re: YO GUYBRUSH!

    you shouldn't drink any more :smile: . sorry I just had to say that
    If you were close enough to scare you, tell me how do I look?

    now, let's get back to serious stuff. How do you create your reality? What is the connection between what you create and what everybody else percieve?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2003
  10. Nov 26, 2003 #9
    no offense taken at the drinking comment. actually, i expected someone to tell me not to drink so early in the morn.

    no matter how you slice it, our view of reality is based on our inner beliefs.

    now, i believe that i am an energy conciousness visiting many worlds in the universe. "my focus" at this point in time and space is a human body that is sharing this period of existence on earth with many like-minded souls. this (these) belief(s) influence and/or create my perception of this reality.

    before birth we all agree to abide by the 'natural laws' that are in play during a particular time (probability) thread. as we, via science or whatever, change the laws (perception) we will experience a world that complies.

    i suspect, that isolated cultures that have a high mystic content can and do have more psychic adventures than the rest of the 'civilized' world. brief example, the Tibetian monks that can go up on a mountain in sub freezing weather, bare footed with only a light robe. they do not freeze. in fact, they give off steam as they meditate. yeah, we can scientically explain that their meditation puts them in an altered state. BUT, they get to that state because they believe they can. we can't cause we have not accepted those tenets.

    perhaps overly simplistic, but isn't this a simple world??

    "if it don't feel good, don't do it! if it does, tell the world!"

    hmmm, maybe, everyone should drink?? LOL
     
  11. Nov 26, 2003 #10
    Actually you are correct as the knowledge of matter, energy, time and all things observed is increasing exponentially each day. Without those few who actually venture away from conventional math such as QM, any attempt at understanding of what is seen by the visual cortex will remain static. Einstein worked on a unified field theory but failed.

    Our current wonder man Stephen Hawkings thinks that the theorized 'black-hole' eventually dissipates into nothingness. But the basic fact that the true nature of energy remains unknown. It can be measured but not be defined in terms that explain it exactly.

    As Einstein predicted, particles and their constituents are nothing more or less than condensed energy. Whatever that is.

     
  12. Nov 26, 2003 #11
    Since Einstein basic concept is spacetime the key is imo: 'restructured spacetime". On certain spots spacetime couples to 'condensates' or holons, in which you have double spacetime.
    In a Hawking term? Singularity becomes restructured singularity.

    At least I offer a simple and logic alternative, which is better then staying in the dark. :smile:
     
  13. Nov 27, 2003 #12
    until I see reality changed by someone's inner belief I don't buy that...

    that is an..... interesting theory. Can you back it up with something showing that we are conscious before birth?

    your example only proves that the monk is hot. He didn't change any reality, the mountain is still there and the weather is still sub-freezing...
     
  14. Nov 27, 2003 #13
    Guybush

    i said before, maybe another thread, that i can not concieve of a time when i didn't exist. Therefore, i have always existed. The fact that i have no concious memory of it is necessary to narrow the focus of my concious mind into this demension/reality.

    remember, we have no concious memory of being born and yet we know we were born. at least most of us. lol

    yes the weather and the mountain are still there; but our monks are not suject to 'our' natural laws, THEY DO NOT FREEZE! they have been given and accepted a belief that they can be physically warm regardless of the ambient temperature.

    if we could reach down into our core beliefs and identify them, THEN we could do the work and change them. i remain mindful of the many, many stories of impossible human strength in times of emergency. Here a desparate mother overcomes her belief that she can not lift a car with the belief that she MUST rescue her child trapped beneath the car. yeah, yeah adrenalin, etc etc. BUT what is the basis of making so much of any hormone/chemical. i go to proximate cause, the root of the events.

    here's hoping that we change our belief about violence and wars. please, do not hate wars, but rather love peace, a strong belief that peace can and will solve our problems will bring about a better world.

    so much for my morning, wake up stroll thru my mind.

    peace and love,
     
  15. Dec 3, 2003 #14
    I wouldn’t say that we see the world as we presume it exists: we simply experience the world and attribute meaning to it. That’s not to say that we are all seeing different things - I wanted to make sure there was some consensus on that.

    Old theories, new theories, and the ones we will use in the future: they are all based on the same thing. All those scientists saw exactly the same thing in front of them: they just came up with different explanations for it. Each of these explanations had their share of weakness and strength, and it is this that is taken to the next level as we try and understand the world. The same thing existed as it always did and we do see the same thing.

    As for inner belief controlling outside effects... like your monks on the mountain, well that just goes to show that belief is a very powerful thing. Will to live, and will to keep things going is a very strong phenomenon, and one we don’t understand yet. It does not mean that we can control our outer environment, or that they really didn’t think the mountain was cold - they simply refused to let the mountain freeze them. That’s will power, and it doesn’t work every time, I want to see all the monks who tried that and failed, and what the difference was between them.

    Reality being based on our beliefs and our belief systems: this effects the way we perceive the world as it gives us a range of bias's to see the world in. for peace and war for instance... a hate for war may give you a strong bias towards seeing everything as an act of war, in which you will hate and react against it, only making the situation worse. A love for peace would see you calmly sitting back and watching as the minor struggle, now with a lack of attention and momentum in it slowly dissipate, so a peaceful state will reign. So yes, beliefs will effect HUMAN action and social politics, of course it will, because our thought and our perspective is the only way to see what is happening, as it is based on nothing else. But just because we perceive an action to be provocative does not mean that it is, so our perception of even our social world is often inaccurate. We experience the world through our biases, so the aim is to limit the biases we have. Become a skeptic. Have no beliefs. Then we may live in harmony, and experience the world as we see it.

    Maybe a distinction to seeing something and experiencing it is needed?
     
  16. Dec 4, 2003 #15
    "I wouldn’t say that we see the world as we presume it exists: we simply experience the world and attribute meaning to it. That’s not to say that we are all seeing different things - I wanted to make sure there was some consensus on that."

    Darkwing you have two too many presumptions and attributions for saying tht we are all possibly seeing different things. I'm afraid there is no consensus on this one.

    1) What is it we are seeing things with?
    2) What is seeing with our occipital cortex which is allegedly composed of ever smaller particles of matter?
    3) Why do you think that we are seeing reality or that what we oberserve is as we assume it to exist from each of our points of perception?


    "Old theories, new theories, and the ones we will use in the future: they are all based on the same thing. All those scientists saw exactly the same thing in front of them: they just came up with different explanations for it. Each of these explanations had their share of weakness and strength, and it is this that is taken to the next level as we try and understand the world. The same thing existed as it always did and we do see the same thing."

    Everything you have just said is a presumption that scientists or even we see the same thing of old and new explanations for what can't possibly be reality.

    First you have to surmise that this universe (if it exists at all) is made up of a void (space) 99.9999999% and the rest matter or particles.
    Second what are these particles that we think exist as a reality?
    If as Einstein and many others have theorized, all particles are in reality nothing more than compressed energy then what the heck is energy?
    Third if energy is a reality where did it come from and is there some sort of correlation between this compressed energy and the back and forth formation of matter/energy?

    There has been proposed that ultimately, energy is nothing more or less than a creator's Wisdom which allows us to perceive reality as 'we' assume it exists. Experimentation from different scientists around the world have now discovered that 'particles' seem somehow to have a innate choice to go this way or that which gives all particles some sort of Wisdom. Which brings us back to the concept of what animates particles/energy into our perceived human intellect, emotion, movement and some of the very same particles become a table or a photon (wave/particle duality)?


    "As for inner belief controlling outside effects... like your monks on the mountain, well that just goes to show that belief is a very powerful thing. Will to live, and will to keep things going is a very strong phenomenon, and one we don’t understand yet. It does not mean that we can control our outer environment, or that they really didn’t think the mountain was cold - they simply refused to let the mountain freeze them. That’s will power, and it doesn’t work every time, I want to see all the monks who tried that and failed, and what the difference was between them."

    The enigma remains. Do the Monks on the mountain exist or is perception greater than the reality in which we feel, touch, smell and see? Remember the old Star Trek episode where the Star Ship captain, a young man, was so badly injured that he became blind, quadraplegic (wheelchair bound) and deformed with the inability to speak? The inhabitants of this fictional planet were so much evolved that they were able to create in the captains mind, a reality of a return to his previous self with the ability to see, love, feel, walk and see things as he assumed they existed. Could we, here in this dimension of timelessness experience our clicking clock earth time and understand things that are in reality nothing more than what we are allowed to percieve. Except of course for our freewill choice during our short blip of time in which we live?

    "Reality being based on our beliefs and our belief systems: this effects the way we perceive the world as it gives us a range of bias's to see the world in. for peace and war for instance... a hate for war may give you a strong bias towards seeing everything as an act of war, in which you will hate and react against it, only making the situation worse. A love for peace would see you calmly sitting back and watching as the minor struggle, now with a lack of attention and momentum in it slowly dissipate, so a peaceful state will reign. So yes, beliefs will effect HUMAN action and social politics, of course it will, because our thought and our perspective is the only way to see what is happening, as it is based on nothing else. But just because we perceive an action to be provocative does not mean that it is, so our perception of even our social world is often inaccurate. We experience the world through our biases, so the aim is to limit the biases we have. Become a skeptic. Have no beliefs. Then we may live in harmony, and experience the world as we see it."

    Or is it that for some inexplicable reason, all the above things you mentioned are not real and only for 'us' to choose to hate (war) or love (anything. Which brings us back to my original concept of each of our freewill choices with no more reality than being allowed to be in an invisible dimension where space/time is warped and 'we' are now as we existed before we were born and where we will be after we pass through this short veil of tears?

    For just a moment step out of the box and like our greatest thinkers and scientists, dare to look at reality from a different perspective before returning to our busy measurements and theories of what 'we' see, feel, touch and perceive as this reality.


    "Maybe a distinction to seeing something and experiencing it is needed?"

    Perhaps you are very correct in this assumption.
     
  17. Dec 5, 2003 #16
    onycho:

    i really appreciate your ability to consider and amplify the ideas being presented.

    what if our thoughts have enrgy as well as our conciousness. restated: what if we(conciousness) are energy and our thoughts and ideas are an energy projection. this idea(belief) creates the 'warp' in time space to present us with the reality that complies with our projection.

    our monks do not change the reality of those that observe their reality. but, to the monks, the harsh weather is accepted in a way that their energy projection(body) experiences the weather as an acceptable (expected) experience.

    they have not changed the weather or their bodies, but rather, their idea of what their body can do. firewalkers are ticksters of a sort; they know quick steps will avoid injury. National Geographic, i believe, was the group that filmed these monks. there could be no trick, other than a different belief system.

    quite often i laugh after a sporting event. we all witness the same event, yet one third of the observers will be happy, one third sad and one third could care less. was it the same reality or three different realities???

    how often does the worry of a negative event bring about it's occurrence??? to a degree, we not only send out the thought energy, but we also unconciously do things that help it happen.

    there are too many testimonies about the power of positive thinking to ignore its value. i'm sure it ain't that simple but when i expect a postive outcome my odds of it occurring go up. WHY? confidence does create unconcious actions to reinforce its happening as well.

    maybe life is a game and we make up our individual rules as we go along???

    hmmmmmmmm, i like that idea!

    gimme a drink,
    chet
     
  18. Dec 5, 2003 #17
    Re: Guybush

    ok, let's take another example. how about this?

    as you see, there are life forms that live in extreme conditions. What about them? Are those little worms modifing the natural laws with their brain. after all THEY DO NOT BOIL!
     
  19. Dec 5, 2003 #18
    An Infinite Space/Time Warp

    Acutally I understood Einstein's concept of a warped space/time being the definition of gravity. The more compressed the mass (i.e., old dead star) the greater that time is effected resulting in the slowing of time until the mass becomes so compressed that everything including photons are drawn into the now rapidly involuting small mass which is theorized to become a black-hole. A place where time itself becomes infinite or that singularity.

    Steven Hawkings sees something else happening in these long accepted events. The ultimate is that a black-hole becomes so compressed on itself that the black-hole eventually evaporates releasing all the matter that it held.

    For me, whatever 'we' consist of actually exists at the edge of a dimension (could be called a black-hole) where time is infinite and does in reality not exist. Much like a magician's illusion, we perceive a reality of a solid world/universe where from our point of perception we live in this self assumption in a solid macro world.

    Whatever.....
     
  20. Dec 5, 2003 #19
    My T.V. burned out. no more energy comming from it but the T.V. is still there.
     
  21. Dec 5, 2003 #20
    Guybrush Threepwood

    staying with the topic of this thread:

    if you are born into this world accepting certain basic laws AND they are reinforced with a certain belief discipline then you experience your world (reality) based on those accepted laws and beliefs.

    if you are born with the basic ability to withstand high temperatures as a worm, you chose to be a worm with those charateristics.

    let's stay with the human experience.

    do the "laws of physics" exist because they are laws or because these were our explanation of the various events we experienced/saw and made measurements that resulted in the "laws". please remember that the measurements etc. are the result of the scientist's beliefs about what should be measured. it has been postulated that his beliefs even affect the results of the measurements. glass half full vs. glass half empty (LOL).

    what if there are GREATER LAWS yet to be uncovered??? laws that include conciousness and allows us to exceed the speed of light. Quantum theory is getting close to this information.

    i am amazed that balancing particles of different charges, will switch instantly when its partner is changed, exceeding the speed of light. the only thing that i believe is quicker is a "THOUGHT".

    so, is it possible that the energy of a thought, idea, belief goes out and creates a reality (for me) that complies.


    we are but a spec when measured against the size of the universe, and yet, i feel like i am at the center of my universe.

    are we a thought projection of our greater self and in turn creating other projected universes????


    gawd, the mind boggles!
    chet
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?



Similar Discussions: Do 'we' see the world as we assume it exists?
  1. Why do we exist? (Replies: 41)

Loading...