Do you believe in god? and why

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Mohaamad

Believing in a God and believing in medusa are totally different matters.

God is an logical extension, hypothesis, of what exist in reality. Just like hypothesizing that the there were other lands to be discovered; thus the discovery of America and other continents. The question is whether we humans, as a function of time, have more to discover. Of course, God is an ultimate hypothesis of reality rather than a discreet hypothesis. It is kind of like hypothesizing the existence of aliens; from the existence of other planets. Except that the existence of God can only be "proved" through an afterlife; all others can be "proved" in this life. Nothing can be proved in this life, only established by our free will.

Being logical can have several connotations. You can be absolutely logical; if you consider yourself a mathmatician and only a mathmatician you can base matters on whether they can be absolutely proved through mathmatical reasoning; of course this would be only an "inherent" proof (it is intrinsically reasonable; intrinsically it seems to provide an absolute proof). Of course the mathmatician would be wrong because he is ultimately human being and not a mathmatician. However, even a "mathmatically minded human being" will have to consider the fact that we are beings of facultative logic. It is more "irrational" to persist in trying to prove that God exist. Irrational meaning a non-rational, endless, stubborn and personal pursuit. We can only make a rational hypothesis on this matter of whether God exist or not. Of course it would be better to consider several facets of reality before one decides. Atheism is purely a personal.......belief. A methodological, facultative philosophy. And thus it is an emotionally based philosophy. All beliefs are personal; thus the reason for us discussing it here, we believe as a means to an end. I apologize if my english was difficult to understand.
 

Ivan Seeking

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Re: Re: Re: do you believe in god? and why

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
1. Errors
Please name them

2. There indeed an infinite amount of "beliefs" meaning claims, that can be justified by logic.
Name one belief system justified by logic.


3. The leap of faith exists. However, it only makes you look bad when you take a HUGE leap towards a disproven claim, when their is a proven claim which takes so little leap it's barely a visible crack.
Name a proven claim; lets see, the choices are God exist and God does not exist. Which one is proven?
 

Ivan Seeking

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Re: Re: Re: do you believe in god? and why

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
1. 4. If we define a "belief" as simple some state of accepting a claim, there are claims which take no leap of faith. ZERO, not A LITTLE, but zero. Realize this.
Name them.

5. You're free to choose beliefs, yes. But when ones poor choices affect other people aside from oneself, others will indeed ridicule you for negatively affecting others. Thus by choosing poor beliefs, you are anti-humanitarian.

What a load! what are your talking about? What do you think you are doing? You seek to disprove thing taken only on faith. The motivation for this is your own need to believe in nothing.

6.To say you are compelled by experience to choose God is simply poor poor brain usage. Experience could only bring about atheism. It's your emotional fixation that brings you to such a conclusion.

So what is the experience to which I refer? Speaking without information again I see. Tell me all about my life please?


7. Nothing in reality will ever bring someone towards an unrealistic, irrational claim acceptance.
Is this just another religious statement or can you prove this?

Accept it. Or again choose to belief against fact.
9. Ivan, to increase the quality of these boards, I am going to put you on my ignore list. Just want you to know that I won't see anything directed at me, unless for a reason I choose to unblock certain posts. Highly unlikely.
Run like a scared little kitty cat. run! run!

Edit: My final comment to LA it seems. Trivial philosophical arguments do not supercede human experience. Why don't you write that one down.
 
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Ivan Seeking

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Originally posted by drag
Indeed, but even that claim is not absolute, is it ? :wink:
btw, nor can one disprove pink ellephants
or the undeniable fact that a billion dollars
are going to matirialize in front of me momentarily.

Live long and prosper.
Drag, thanks for responding in a reasonable manner...unlike some of our friends.

I don't mean to inspire belief in invisible scary skeletons [the real culprits behind QM phenomenon you know]. Also, I am not aware of many claims of pink elephants as compared to 4000 years of religion. Since science can never even address the non-existence of a god [God], the choice for belief or a lack of belief is rooted only in faith. I am amazed that considering God is not a subject of science, so many try to use science to disprove God's existence. On the other hand however, I have human testimony. This may not be scientific evidence, but it is human evidence. So the only real evidence on the matter is for, and not against God's existence.

What should we take on faith? The big bang? Evolution? Electrons? Mathematics? Science promises no absolute truth. Science is an evolving philosophy. We may find tomorrow that there was no big bang. Belief in the scientific process I think is justified, but this is a matter of faith. I surely don't believe that science has all of the answers; in fact I know it doesn't. As for math: I say Gödel!
 
A

Alexander

Originally posted by Iacchus32
But then why does Atheism base itself upon the "so-called" fact that God doesn't exist? Just because something may not be provable (at this time) doesn't it mean it "doesn't exist." In which case you have to rely strictly upon "faith" in order to make such a claim.
How come not provable? The facts of inexistence of gods (Zeuses, or biblical Gods) are abundant. All specific gods were proven not to exist.

Can you specify, exactly which God you are talking about? It likely then is some other object than Bible and religion are talking about.
 
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Originally posted by Iacchus32
But then why does Atheism base itself upon the "so-called" fact that God doesn't exist? Just because something may not be provable (at this time) doesn't it mean it "doesn't exist." In which case you have to rely strictly upon "faith" in order to make such a claim.
This is a too narrow and theoretical issue.
Firstly, what makes you think, what in the world urges you or necessitates you to even think or postulate something like a God should exist, and to declare it's existence, without a proper well-defined theorem, the debate becomes totally abstract and meaningless.

Physcis talks about things sometimes, that don't exist, but they talk about it for a reason. For instance the top quark was first postulated from theory, and only found later by obeservation.

Now what is the theory that says God must exist then?

To name one candidate, ("God created the universe; the universe existt => God must exist") this can be disargued from the point of view that the universe does not need creation.
Argument: suppose we would say, the universe itself was not existent in all time. Then comes the need for a "creation" of the universe, and hence a "creator" is needed. But all we did, was just shift the problem of the existence of the universe, to the existence of God. Who created God? Well, this is then solved, by declaring God existed all the time, in all eternity.
But why did we have to invent God, instead of declaring that the unvierse itself could exist in all eternity. Hence, the existence of God is not needed to explain the existence of the universe. We just need to declare, the universe existed in all eternity.
 
L

LogicalAtheist

heusdens - It's like my Zero Chance Of Occurence claim.

The chance that any given random item, in and of itself, exists in the universe is so low it could be considered zero.

Once a human being, such as myself, see the proof of the claim that all current mythologies on earth that include God we're created merely as mythologies, we realize that "God" is just another random item, and that the chance occurence of a random item, in and of itself (meaning disregarding any proof of the item etc..) iz basically zero.

Since we of course would have nothing logical or rational to lead to the claim that a God exists...

It's probablity is basically zero.

The idea to even use science to try to touch the claim is obsurd, because above science we're able to dismiss it to basically zero with logic (and a bit of math) alone.

Those emotionally attached to religion (mythopaths as I call them) can't see this.
 

Les Sleeth

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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Once a human being, such as myself, see the proof of the claim that all current mythologies on earth that include God we're created merely as mythologies . . .
Let's see your proof. If you haven't got it, none of your inferences follow.

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Since we of course would have nothing logical or rational to lead to the claim that a God exists...
Let's hear you demonstrate your knowledge of the subject you are ready to "dismiss." Cite what you have studied, show us how extensively you have delved into the reports of God. Do you really understand why some people believe it, or are you speaking from ignorance?

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Those emotionally attached to religion (mythopaths as I call them) can't see this.
I call ignorant, condescending philosophers "mypath-and-no-one-elses."
 
L

LogicalAtheist

1. The evidence to the claim that mythologies are only mythologies is too common knowledge for me to cite. The average human already knows it, without doing research. Because of this, I feel no need to tell it to you. If you have not taken this knowledge and applied it, then do it. If you can't, then perhaps you're unaware of origins of religion. Nevertheless, it's to obvious statements to take the time to type.

2. Regarding my knowledge of the subject. Uhm, again this is common knowledge, I have yet to meet a human who did not have the knowldge in their memory that I do regarding this. Perhaps they hadn't put it together to support this claim, but it was still there. I really don't think asking someone to post information as common as "the sky is blue" is appropriate. If you don't have this, then I would say that you're not knowledable to speak on the subject at my level

3. From your final little rebuttle, it appears you do fall into the mythopath catagory. I'd urge you to disallow yourself to be tied up into a claim emotionally. If you learn to like only the truth, you'll never be disappointed. It would better not only yourself, but humanity as well.
 
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Originally posted by drdeath
so if you can prove god exists please do so here and i will start believing.
If I could prove it then you wouldn't need to believe it.
 

Les Sleeth

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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
1. The evidence to the claim that mythologies are only mythologies is too common knowledge for me to cite. The average human already knows it, without doing research. Because of this, I feel no need to tell it to you. If you have not taken this knowledge and applied it, then do it. If you can't, then perhaps you're unaware of origins of religion. Nevertheless, it's to obvious statements to take the time to type.
I am beginning to wonder just what sort of "scientist" you are. A true scientist knows not to make statements without accompanying evidence that supports his/her claims.

I am also wondering if you shouldn't change your name to "IllogicalAtheist." Explain to me why you believe "mythologies are only mythologies" addresses anything I said to you.

Regarding my awareness of the origin of religions, I am degreed in religious studies, and have continued my research for the last 25 years. I am quite aware of their origins, but you are obviously not since you want to characterize the whole of religion as mythology, which is patently incorrect.

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
2. Regarding my knowledge of the subject. Uhm, again this is common knowledge, I have yet to meet a human who did not have the knowldge in their memory that I do regarding this. Perhaps they hadn't put it together to support this claim, but it was still there. I really don't think asking someone to post information as common as "the sky is blue" is appropriate. If you don't have this, then I would say that you're not knowledable to speak on the subject at my level.
You are right, I'd have to unlearn majorly to sink to your level of understanding. But if you believe you can out reason me, or that you are better informed about either religion or science, I would welcome any challenge you care to send my way.

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
3. From your final little rebuttle, it appears you do fall into the mythopath catagory. I'd urge you to disallow yourself to be tied up into a claim emotionally. If you learn to like only the truth, you'll never be disappointed. It would better not only yourself, but humanity as well.
What nonsense. You might be surprise to find out that I am not religious. I simply have undertaken to study the cause of it because I became interested in the conscious phenomenon of "enlightenment." It seemed to attract a lot of attention those times it has occurred throughout history. I do think the major religions today have decended from people trying to undersand and be part of that experience (whatever it was), but I don't think religion itself has anything to do with the genuine enlightenment experience.

It just might be that "enlightenment" is some sort of evolutionary leap consciousness is just beginning to make, or maybe not. In any case, I can tell you don't know anything about religion OR enlightenment, which means you are incessantly speaking at a science site out of ignorance. Just how "logical" is that?
 
L

LogicalAtheist

I'm not going to adhere to the games you're trying me at. People are here to learn, to discuss, etc..., and I'm not going to take your instigations and ruin it for others. Thus you're now on my block list. So, I won't be able to respond to you. No one comes here to hear what you've put forth. (I won't) see you around.
 
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Originally posted by heusdens
This is a too narrow and theoretical issue.
Firstly, what makes you think, what in the world urges you or necessitates you to even think or postulate something like a God should exist, and to declare it's existence, without a proper well-defined theorem, the debate becomes totally abstract and meaningless.
What if I were to say I had first hand experience? Would that make me even more credible? Somehow I don't think so. And yet if it were possible that God did exist, then it no longer becomes a matter of "if," but of "how?" Which would then put me at a different vantage point than others, to say the least! So where others are busy trying to solve the "if," if at all, I'm already working on solving "the how?" And yet there's a big gap that exists between the two. And perhaps I'm not prepared to go through the whole tedious process of applying for the patent, when in fact the patent already exists, and has existed long since before I came along? You know why bother?


Physcis talks about things sometimes, that don't exist, but they talk about it for a reason. For instance the top quark was first postulated from theory, and only found later by obeservation.
And yet what if it was more than just postulation? Of course you may not know for yourself, but wouldn't that give me the right to be the least bit ornery? Well perhaps ... Why should I squander the whole thing by those who don't appreciate it?


Now what is the theory that says God must exist then?

To name one candidate, ("God created the universe; the universe existt => God must exist") this can be disargued from the point of view that the universe does not need creation.

Argument: suppose we would say, the universe itself was not existent in all time. Then comes the need for a "creation" of the universe, and hence a "creator" is needed. But all we did, was just shift the problem of the existence of the universe, to the existence of God. Who created God? Well, this is then solved, by declaring God existed all the time, in all eternity.

But why did we have to invent God, instead of declaring that the unvierse itself could exist in all eternity. Hence, the existence of God is not needed to explain the existence of the universe. We just need to declare, the universe existed in all eternity.
I think the most plausible way for me to explain it, as evidenced by many of my threads, would be by means of cognizance and what that entails, which I think I was beginning to hit peak in the following thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2264" ...

Please feel free to take a look and provide any comments you may have, and perhaps I'll refrain from getting too ornery? Hey you never know!
 
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Les Sleeth

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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
I'm not going to adhere to the games you're trying me at. People are here to learn, to discuss, etc..., and I'm not going to take your instigations and ruin it for others. Thus you're now on my block list. So, I won't be able to respond to you. No one comes here to hear what you've put forth. (I won't) see you around.
You might believe this, but I've been trying to help you. But go ahead, continue making an ass out of yourself in public by trying to act like a genius in front of people who clearly see how foolish you are.
 

Ivan Seeking

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Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I became interested in the conscious phenomenon of "enlightenment." It seemed to attract a lot of attention those times it has occurred throughout history. I do think the major religions today have decended from people trying to undersand and be part of that experience (whatever it was), but I don't think religion itself has anything to do with the genuine enlightenment experience.

It just might be that "enlightenment" is some sort of evolutionary leap consciousness is just beginning to make, or maybe not...
Interesting! How exactly do you define enlightenment? I often look to the role that science plays in the philosophy of religions. Often it seems that information and events conspire to create leaps in thought or concept that ripple through religions and cultures...such as the renaissance period.
 
A

Alexander

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Cite what you have studied, show us how extensively you have delved into the reports of God.
Which reports (of God)? Facts, please.

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
A true scientist knows not to make statements without accompanying evidence that supports his/her claims.
 
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drag

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Greetings !

Ivan Seeking, I'm not sure what you meant in
your response to my message.
A few points I'd like to make that may be
relevant to what you said:
1. Science is merely observation and application
of various reasoning to it of the type that
does allow further progress in improving
this observation. Science is not faith.
2. Science says nothing about things it does
not observe. As a consequence, science has
nothing to say about God, religion, pink
flying ellephants or my cat being God because
it has no data of this. It can niether confirm
or deny this or indeed adress it in any way.
Is this connected to what you said ?

Live long and prosper.
 
L

LogicalAtheist

Originally posted by drag
Science says nothing about things it does
not observe. As a consequence, science has
nothing to say about God, religion, pink
flying ellephants or my cat being God because
it has no data of this. It can niether confirm
or deny this or indeed adress it in any way.
Completely and totally wrong. As I just posted in another page, it seems people underestimate the power of the scientific method and of general investigation.

These two things have long since remove the existance of any God from reality. I am truly suprised at the amount of people who claim otherwise, as it means they do not grasp the scientific method, and thus do not understand the essence of science.
 

drag

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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
These two things have long since remove the existance
of any God from reality. I am truly suprised at the
amount of people who claim otherwise, as it means
they do not grasp the scientific method, and thus
do not understand the essence of science.
I see...
What is the scientific proof for the inexistance
of God, please ?

Thanks.

Live long and prosper.
 
L

LogicalAtheist

Drag - Read. You're asking a question that is way to dynamic. Read, and learn.
 

drag

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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Drag - Read. You're asking a question that is way
to dynamic. Read, and learn.
Is that going to be your response every time
you are asked to explain something you consider
correct but got no clear idea why ? :wink:
Or, maybe, in some cases you'll just prefer
to ignore such requests as you did in another
thread here ?

Doubt or shout !

Peace and long life.
 
L

LogicalAtheist

Originally posted by drag
Is that going to be your response every time
you are asked to explain something you consider
correct but got no clear idea why ? :wink:
Or, maybe, in some cases you'll just prefer
to ignore such requests as you did in another
thread here ?

Doubt or shout !

Peace and long life.

You're missing the point. I can explain easy things here. If one is asking to understand such a large area of science, it tells me that person is not very well versed in the essence and fundamentals of science.

I'm not going to copy out for you the text of books of scientific material.

It's your duty to, if you want to speak on a subject with reason, to properly investigate ALL current knowledge.

I wouldn't ask you to show me all the historical evidence of gravity.
 

drag

Science Advisor
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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
You're missing the point. I can explain easy
things here. If one is asking to understand
such a large area of science, it tells me that
person is not very well versed in the essence
and fundamentals of science.
Oh... It's SO complex that my poor knowledge
is by far insufficient to understand this proof ?!
Wow !

Nice talking to you LA !
BTW, I do have one last bit of advice for you -
you may wan'na consider changing that
signature with the "rules" you often use...:wink:

Peace and long life.
 
L

LogicalAtheist

One can easily see that God is mentioned within the pages of books that are dated as "old".

TO suggest that anything in those pages applies to reality takes on the burden of proof. You seem to not understand this fundamental.

If I wrote down a sentence with a claim, on a piece of paper.

Your mere observations shows it's a sentence on a paper.

To say that the burden of proof lies on you to prove that the claim is not true in reality, is absurd.

It's also breaking a fundamental of science.To you at least know this much? We'll take it in baby steps.
 

Les Sleeth

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Originally posted by Alexander
Which reports (of God)? Facts, please.
It's a waste of time Alexander. I did that for you several times at the last PF site, and you didn't investigate them then. The truth is, you only are going to study that which supports your position, and dismiss anything which doesn't as nonsense. So the bad news is you get no more evidence, but the good news is I think you and LogicalAtheist are going to become great friends.
 

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