Do you support legalisation of marijuana?

[Al68]

Do you and I have the right to use force against someone and imprison them for using alcohol in their home?

If not, where would the states get the right? Assuming we believe that all legitimate state power is delegated from the people.

The state acquires the right by consent of the people to be a (theoretically) impartial moderator and enforcer of the law adopted by those same people. The difference is that "you and I" haven't the endorsement of the body of the people.

OK, where did the "body of the people" get the right to imprison a person for using alcohol in their home?

 

[maverick_starstrider]

Why would you need protection from someone lounging on their couch without the ability to stand? I have already stated that the only place that law should enter the equation is when the acts of a person under the influence of any mind altering substance places his/er fellow citizens at risk.

Well junkies jonesing for a fix have certainly been known to commit violent crime. Although I sometimes question whether the correlation of heroin abuse really implies causation. Seems to me that crappy, poor, desperate lives cause both violent crime and substance abuse. So maybe we should focus more of our effort on increasing the average wealth and education level.

 

[Woody101]

As was posted very early on in this thread, "prohibition don't work" It didn't work in the 1920s with booze, it won't work with drugs. We spend billions on the war on drugs and stop about 10% of what is coming into this country. Obviously all we have to do to stop illegal drugs is spend more money. For a few trillion maybe we could stop 30%. Or, we could just declare victor, legalize all of it, tax it and spend the money we are wasting fighting drugs on something worthwhile.

If a conservative, elderly redneck can figure this out it shouldn't be a quantum leap for our well educated politicians.

 

[robertm]

Oxymoron: * conjoining contradictory terms (as in `deafening silence');

or as in...

well educated politicians.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

condi had a PhD

 

[drankin]

As was posted very early on in this thread, "prohibition don't work" It didn't work in the 1920s with booze, it won't work with drugs. We spend billions on the war on drugs and stop about 10% of what is coming into this country. Obviously all we have to do to stop illegal drugs is spend more money. For a few trillion maybe we could stop 30%. Or, we could just declare victor, legalize all of it, tax it and spend the money we are wasting fighting drugs on something worthwhile.

If a conservative, elderly redneck can figure this out it shouldn't be a quantum leap for our well educated politicians.

The prohibition DID work. The sale of alcohol was prohibited and you could not buy it at the local supermarket. Do you have some data to support your allegation? The prohibition is working in the sense that it is illegal and not publicly available. It's a weak argument if you actually had one.

Drugs are a vice, alcohol is vice. Just because one vice is legal is not a good argument that another should be legal as well.

 

[jreelawg]

The prohibition DID work. The sale of alcohol was prohibited and you could not buy it at the local supermarket. Do you have some data to support your allegation? The prohibition is working in the sense that it is illegal and not publicly available. It's a weak argument if you actually had one.

Drugs are a vice, alcohol is vice. Just because one vice is legal is not a good argument that another should be legal as well.

I would ask what specific definition of vice you refer to? Using cannabis, or drinking a little alcohol isn't an immoral or evil act in my opinion, however it can become a bad habit. If vice is meant to mean bad habit, then it is required that you are abusing the substance for it to be a vice. Cannabis can actually be a very effective medicine under some circumstances.

Probably one of the most damaging of vices for some, soda pop(high fructose corn syrup).

I would be in favor of law in which it is legal to grow and consume a limited amount for yourself if you are over 18. However, sales should be restricted to medical patients. That way kids can't legally get a hold of it, medical patients can, and the government isn't micromanaging your life.

 

[drankin]

It is not a good argument to say that cannabis is a vice. In actuality,it is very effective in many cases as a medical treatment. I also argue that alcohol, like cannabis, is only a vice when abused.

I would ask what specific definition of vice you refer to in order to appropriately respond though. Using cannabis, or drinking a little alcohol isn't an immoral or evil act in my opinion, however it can become a bad habit. If vice is meant to mean bad habit, then it is required that you are abusing the substance for it to be a vice.

Then I would like to know why a bad habit should be illegal. Should it be illegal to pick your nose? Should it be illegal to chew with your mouth open, or to not brush your teeth? Bacon, eggs, chocolate, tuna fish, all potential vices. Probably one of the most damaging vices is soda pop(high fructose corn syrup).

I would be in favor of law in which it is legal to grow and consume it for yourself if your over 18. However, sales should be restricted to medical patients. That way kids can't legally get a hold of it, medical patients can, and the government isn't micromanaging your life.

Cannibas is illegal. Alcohol probably should be illegal too. Pot is a vice. It's a habitual mind altering drug. It alters ones judgment in a different way than alcohol but none-the-less it does.

Ultimately, it comes down to the voting public. The people of the US do not want it legalized. End of discussion because that's what it comes down to. What does the public want? They do not want it legalized. Though I'm a regular consumer of alcohol, I wouldn't be opposed to an actual prohibition of it. It would save me a bunch of cash and the rest of America could be a little more confident that they are going to make it home after working a swing shift (lol, I don't drink and drive, I'm talking about the other consumers).

Society, currently, has a line of drawn as to what is an acceptable mind altering product. And pot isn't on the acceptable side of the line. And in my experience, that is where it belongs.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

OK, where did the "body of the people" get the right to imprison a person for using alcohol in their home?

Because it's their community. Majority rules. That's pretty much the way it works. If you want it to be different then you have to convince people to agree with you.

The prohibition DID work. The sale of alcohol was prohibited and you could not buy it at the local supermarket. Do you have some data to support your allegation? The prohibition is working in the sense that it is illegal and not publicly available. It's a weak argument if you actually had one.

Drugs are a vice, alcohol is vice. Just because one vice is legal is not a good argument that another should be legal as well.

Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

All of these things, save perhaps for export, were rather rampant during the prohibition era. Illegal or not alcohol was rather readily available for all but the poor. So if the point was to make alcohol unavailable, it failed. If the point was to stop the abuse of alcohol, it failed. If the point was to reduce crime, it failed rather spectacularly.
In a cost-benefit analysis would you really rate prohibition as a success simply because it was unlikely alcohol would be found at the local grocers?

 

[Kronos5253]

Society, currently, has a line of drawn as to what is an acceptable mind altering product. And pot isn't on the acceptable side of the line.

Where are you getting that info. from?

Give me a cite-able source that says that society thinks that marijuana should be illegal. Because from my experience, and from most people I know, they think marijuana should be legal, just controlled (like alcohol is for instance)... So I don't know where you're getting the assumption that society has decided that.

I'm pretty sure what you meant to say was politicians.

 

[mbisCool]

You ask for a cite-able source then provide anecdotal evidence for your claim. It is true that many support the legalization (or at least decriminalization) of marijuana, although I believe they are still the minority nation wide. Many of the major media outlets cite recent polls with approximately a 56% or so approval rating in California alone. The rest of the country is not quite as open to a liberal drug policy. I believe the numbers were in the lower 40%'s nation wide. These results are by no means definitive, however, I believe they provide a decent indication; I will search for the results a little later.

I am surrounded by pro marijuana individuals everyday as well. I am young and live in Washington however.

 

[Woody101]

drankin: Prohibition was supposed to stop the comsuptuon of alcohol by making it illegal to sell it. If you would care to crack a history book you might find that all it did was make a bunch of gangsters and politicians rich but it never put a dent in the consumption of alcohol. Some people seem to operate under the falicy that if you make something illegal it stops that particular behavior. Once again we are trying to legislate morality with drugs and in the process all we are doing is making a bunch of gangsters and politicians rich. I believe it was Einstein who said "it is stupid to do more of the same thing and expect different results". Those who want to use drugs will do so if it is legal or not, so I say let them fry their brains if the want. To me it seems senseless to throw away billions upon billions on programs that don't work when they could be better spent.

 

[ray b]

Someone a while back mentioned that Carl Sagan smoked pot and was of the opinion that he did his best thinking when high. Maybe that was true for him, but it isn't generally true. I'd been the only sober person in a circle of pot smokers a number of times and I wish I had a camcorder sometimes - not just because it was funny, but to show people the next day that no, those things they were saying last night were not profound, they were just dumb. They only sound profound because when you're high you can't understand your own ideas, which makes you think they are deep.

by your statement of at night the people you were around were not working
they were just relaxing or partying and not trying to do anything

a short list of known great things
by people who did do a few things while high on pot and other drugs

this little thing we call the internet and the home computer
and most of the hard and software used to make it work

much of the modern entertainment industry from movies to music
artists poets and many other creative people

to say all people get insights or develop new great ideas
is just as wrong as saying nobody does anything useful
while on drugs
but clearly some do
and everyone is better off from some of those ideas

 

[jreelawg]

I still don't see it fair to call pot a vice without the proper context. As a prescription drug is it a vice? Define vice.

 

[camilus]

drankin: Prohibition was supposed to stop the comsuptuon of alcohol by making it illegal to sell it. If you would care to crack a history book you might find that all it did was make a bunch of gangsters and politicians rich but it never put a dent in the consumption of alcohol. Some people seem to operate under the falicy that if you make something illegal it stops that particular behavior. Once again we are trying to legislate morality with drugs and in the process all we are doing is making a bunch of gangsters and politicians rich. I believe it was Einstein who said "it is stupid to do more of the same thing and expect different results". Those who want to use drugs will do so if it is legal or not, so I say let them fry their brains if the want. To me it seems senseless to throw away billions upon billions on programs that don't work when they could be better spent.

great point. I believe the war on drugs is a lost cause, we might as well just cut our losses. How you said, the money COULD be better spent. And legal or illegal I am still going to smoke weed. They build more prisons than schools, and waste billions of dollars to put me in jail for nothing.

 

[JRDunassigned]

I just want to see America start hemp farms and use the product for profit - it's an excellent alternative to cutting down trees for paper or using cotton for clothes. In fact, the Framers of the Constitution recognized it's utility nature; it was grown here in America in the 1700s.

 

[Hepth]

I still don't see it fair to call pot a vice without the proper context. As a prescription drug is it a vice? Define vice.

As a prescription, no its not a vice. As a recreational drug, yes it is and will be until they start diagnosing boredom as a medical condition.

vice
1  /vaɪs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vahys] Show IPA ,
–noun
1. an immoral or evil habit or practice.
2. immoral conduct; depraved or degrading behavior: a life of vice.
3. sexual immorality, esp. prostitution.
4. a particular form of depravity.
5. a fault, defect, or shortcoming: a minor vice in his literary style.
6. a physical defect, flaw, or infirmity: a constitutional vice.
7. a bad habit, as in a horse.

I prefer #5, and #7. Especially the horse part.EDIT: And yes I would consider all of these vices:
Sweets, Fast Food, Soda, Alcohol, Weed, Taking Prescription drugs that aren't yours, caffeine, etc.

Basically anything unnecessary that is physically or mentally detrimental, done for the sole purpose of entertainment.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

I don't think I've ever ingested caffeine for the purpose of entertainment. Although maybe that's just me, maybe other people find drinking a coke a laugh riot.

 

[Hepth]

I don't think I've ever ingested caffeine for the purpose of entertainment. Although maybe that's just me, maybe other people find drinking a coke a laugh riot.

Eh, enjoying a beverage is entertainment in my book. Can't be so acute with your definitions.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

Eh, enjoying a beverage is entertainment in my book. Can't be so acute with your definitions.

So's reading a good book. Is reading a vice?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

So's reading a good book. Is reading a vice?

It can be. I've spent hundreds of dollars on books for entertainment in only a couple of days before. And I often even buy crappy newstand paperbacks just to have something to read.

Just about anything can be a vice really.

Edit: and there are in fact people (mostly young people) who drink large quantities of caffeine because its a legal means of getting spun.

 

[jgens]

drankin: Prohibition was supposed to stop the comsuptuon of alcohol by making it illegal to sell it. If you would care to crack a history book you might find that all it did was make a bunch of gangsters and politicians rich but it never put a dent in the consumption of alcohol.

Strictly speaking, this isn't true. Many modern historical studies have actually shown that net alcohol consumption in the United States dropped significantly because of the prohibition of alcohol. However, to your point, it did essentially spark the beginnings of organized crime and alcohol was still available for consumption in speakeasies.

 

[robertm]

Again, why do people think it should be up to society at large to decide what "vices" one can or can not partake? What ever happened to individual autonomy, maturity, conscious?

I side with Henry:

[1849, original title: Resistance to Civil Government]

I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which the will have.

I do not and will not submit to micromanagement of my life such as this from government, and I wonder why so many feel as if I should? Given the opportunity, I myself would never attempt to wield such authority over thinking men and women. Why are there so many who would and do?

 

[Hepth]

So's reading a good book. Is reading a vice?

Really? Did you not even read my post?

"Basically anything unnecessary that is physically or mentally detrimental, done for the sole purpose of entertainment. "

I don't think a book falls under that category...

 

[Hepth]

What ever happened to individual autonomy, maturity, conscious?

A guy who had one too many beers in the privacy of his house, lost his ability to make smart decisions, and decided to do a quick run down to taco bell, veered into oncoming traffic and killed a family of 5.

If that would NEVER happen, i don't think the majority of people in the USA would care if people drank at home, or smoked, or partook in drugs. But it DOES happen, all too frequently with alcohol. So many have this reluctance, among other reasons, to introduce yet another perception impairing drug into the legal consumption market, regardless if it would actually increase the danger. Its the FEAR of the possible danger that would keep them from voting it.But regardless, my opinion is let the supreme court decide if we have a RIGHT to take any drug in our own homes. When they decide that we don't, let the states make up their own minds by popular vote.

 

[tchitt]

I love how no one arguing for legalization in here has responded to my one simple statement.

"The government is protecting people who don't use drugs from people who do."

I know I said I wouldn't post in this topic again but I'd like to hear something from someone.

A guy who had one too many beers in the privacy of his house, lost his ability to make smart decisions, and decided to do a quick run down to taco bell, veered into oncoming traffic and killed a family of 5.

Exactly. It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

I already know you'll argue that keeping it illegal is not going to stop anyone. But you'd be wrong because most people do follow the law from fear of being caught. If nothing else the danger is reduced.

 

[jreelawg]

Really? Did you not even read my post?

"Basically anything unnecessary that is physically or mentally detrimental, done for the sole purpose of entertainment. "

I don't think a book falls under that category...

If it is a book of hate, or a book promoting immoral behavior, or if it is a deceptive book made to promote lies, or a romance novel, or something then it could very well be a vice.

 

[robertm]

A guy who had one too many beers in the privacy of his house, lost his ability to make smart decisions, and decided to do a quick run down to taco bell, veered into oncoming traffic and killed a family of 5.

Maybe you haven't followed the whole thread, but I have already stated my opinion of judicial action against those who put their fellow citizens in danger.

Anyone who would allow themselves to be in the position that you described in the first place, never had maturity to begin with. So should people be encouraged to grow up and educate themselves, or should the government hold our hands, cover our eyes, and save us from the big bad realities of being alive?

And more specifically what does this have to do with marijuana decriminalization? Seeing as unfortunate accidents such as this (and many others) happen quite often across the states yet alcohol remains (and will remain) legal?

 

[jreelawg]

"The government is protecting people who don't use drugs from people who do."

This is a poor argument given that people on cannabis are less likely to harm another, except in the case of a car accident or something like that. But, it is illegal to drive drunk or high anyways. A similar scenario is that a 14 year old kid took is fathers sports car for a joy ride and ran into a minivan killing a family of 5. The same thing, someone broke the law, and someone got killed, but I wouldn't say this is a good argument for making cars illegal.

 

[tchitt]

This is a poor argument given that people on cannabis are less likely to harm another, except in the case of a car accident or something like that. But, it is illegal to drive drunk or high anyways. A similar scenario is that a 14 year old kid took is fathers sports car for a joy ride and ran into a minivan killing a family of 5. The same thing, someone broke the law, and someone got killed, but I wouldn't say this is a good argument to making cars illegal.

How do you enforce people not driving high?! Nothing short of a blood test would show that you had drugs in your system at the time, and it is therefore completely unenforceable.

Cars are a necessity in modern society, weed is not. Stop reaching just because you like to get high.

 

[jreelawg]

How do you enforce people not driving high?! Nothing short of a blood test would show that you had drugs in your system at the time, and it is therefore completely unenforceable.

Cars are a necessity in modern society, weed is not. Stop reaching just because you like to get high.

I think it is reaching to say that it is completely unenforcable. I personally know of people who got DUI's for smoking. They have tests, shining the flashlight in your eyes, etc, which are pretty accurate for a properly trained officer. If they suspect you, they can take you in a do a pee test. They also can do tests to see how impared you are in general. Perhaps if you were barely stoned, and still in total control, you wouldn't get a DUI. You would however be likely to smell like it.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

A guy who had one too many beers in the privacy of his house, lost his ability to make smart decisions, and decided to do a quick run down to taco bell, veered into oncoming traffic and killed a family of 5.

Well why don't we ban cars then, or taco bells for that matter. Wife cheats on husband, husband kills wife, should we ban adultery? Man gets obsessed with sudoku, neglects new born child which dies. Should we ban sudoku?

But regardless, my opinion is let the supreme court decide if we have a RIGHT to take any drug in our own homes. When they decide that we don't, let the states make up their own minds by popular vote.

Yes, that would almost make sense wouldn't it. Not that something like that would ever happen of course but even if it did it would probably be BS. Most western countries have constitutions set up with tenets that trump public referendum. Like america and its first amendment right to freedom of expression and religion.

 

[tchitt]

Well why don't we ban cars then, or taco bells for that matter. Wife cheats on husband, husband kills wife, should we ban adultery? Man gets obsessed with sudoku, neglects new born child which dies. Should we ban sudoku?.

By the same token, husband gets high on meth for three weeks and develops amphetamine psychosis and starts hallucinating from sleep deprivation. Man kills wife. Should we ban meth?

You only believe in common sense when it serves your own point of view? Or do you think people should be able to buy eight-balls at their local gas stations, too?

I think it is reaching to say that it is completely unenforcable. I personally know of people who got DUI's for smoking. They have tests, shining the flashlight in your eyes, etc, which are pretty accurate for a properly trained officer. If they suspect you, they can take you in a do a pee test. They also can do tests to see how impared you are in general. Perhaps if you were barely stoned, and still in total control, you wouldn't get a DUI. You would however be likely to smell like it.

Okay maybe it's not completely unenforceable but it's a hell of a lot less enforceable than alcohol. If you smoke at home then go for a spin you probably wouldn't smell it at all.

Books aren't physically addictive.

The fact that you are comparing drugs to basically any and every other activity is pretty telling.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

Cars are a necessity in modern society, weed is not. Stop reaching just because you like to get high.

Actually I really don't like weed and I tend to have negative opinions of users. That doesn't make me think I have the right to go Johnny Fascist on liberty. I don't want my government trying to exercise that kind of control over its population. I think it's in complete disregard of the fundamental principles of said governments creation. Although for a person who's icon has soviet iconography you may disagree.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

By the same token, husband gets high on meth for three weeks and develops amphetamine psychosis and starts hallucinating from sleep deprivation. Man kills wife. Should we ban meth?

You only believe in common sense when it serves your own point of view? Or do you think people should be able to buy eight-balls at their local gas stations?

Well let's also not forget that meth is a result of despirtation in the war on drugs. If drugs were legalized, they wouldn't be laced with other things and they're be a huge industry to make drugs that performed their recreational function while minimizing unwanted side-effects.