Genius in USA or First World? Iran's Konkoor Exam Results

[gholamghar]

hello
in iran if you want to go to university you should take a big exam which is named Konkoor,and if you want to study in engineering fields at university you should compete with about 400000 students every year,the better your rank is in that exam the more chance you have to go to better universities and better fields,i know a guy (a friend of mine) which lives in Iran his rank among 400000 students that took the exam(konkoor) was 3547and he studied mechanical engineering,then when he wanted to study his Msc in mechanical engineering he took another Konkoor and his rank was 150 among 16000 students that participated in the exam,as i know in iran this guy would be named an "upper than average" student due to the educational model they have, what do you think if this guy was in USA or a first world country what was he named?a genius?an "upper than average" student"?or what do you think about how much of a good student he is if he was in first world countries?

(as for your knowledge the only way to go to university in iran is participating in konkoor and everybody that wants to go to university takes that,for example 16000 students that participated in his second konkoor are not just a part of students that want to get a Msc,they are all of the students that want to get a Msc)

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Measuring of intelligence is somewhat subjective. The term "genius" is usually applied to persons who score over 140 (approximately) on a standard IQ test. We have a similar test to the konkoor in the US called SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test). It does not test the same things that an IQ test does though generally people who score in the higher percentiles probably have high IQs aswell.

 

[gholamghar]

thanks for reply,is SAT exam as hard as Konkoor? in konkoor you should compete with 400000 people(first konkoor for Bs),and because iran is a third world country and has limited educational facilities if you are not among the first 6000 students you will not have the chance to get good education,if this guy was in USA with a 3547 rank between 400000 people,how much chanca does this guy had to study mechanical engineering in universities like MIT,stanford,harvard or yale?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

thanks for reply,is SAT exam as hard as Konkoor? in konkoor you should compete with 400000 people(first konkoor for Bs),and because iran is a third world country and has limited educational facilities if you are not among the first 6000 students you will not have the chance to get good education,if this guy was in USA with a 3547 rank between 400000 people,how much chanca does this guy had to study mechanical engineering in universities like MIT,stanford,harvard or yale?

I tried to look up something that describes the Konkoor but so far have not found anything in english and there don't seem to be any articles anywhere that compare the two tests.

The SAT is not competative. Scores are not based on ranking, only preformance on the test. So it would be hard to compare a ranking in the konkoor with a score in the SAT.
Here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#Raw_scores.2C_scaled_scores.2C_and_percentiles
..there is a table of approximate percentiles.
It shows approximately what percentage of people who take the test achieve certain score ranges.
If we consider the scoring ranges equal for convenience then your friend having placed higher than 99% of the of the other test takers would equate to an SAT score not terribly short of perfect (2290 of 2400 possible, approximately). Realistically that could be rather off but its the best I can do at a comparison.
MIT admissions accepts students in the 75th percentile at the high end so if the two tests are at all comparable then your friend would qualify on that criterion. There are other criteria used to determine eligibility for entrance though such as previous grade records. There may also be limited admittance so he would have to have qualifications competitive with the other candidates.
They actually have a Persian Students Association at MIT and an Iranian Studies Group.

I haven't looked up anything for the other schools you mentioned but while I was looking for information on the konkoor I found a comment that Iranian students who go to graduate school abroad in the US tend to find enrollment in a university rather easily.

 

[-Aladdin-]

In Lebanon there's also , But not konkoor ?

 

[gholamghar]

thanks for reply,konkoor is different from SAT,as i know in SAT when you get your score you can go and apply for any university you want,even if you have a 1500 score you can go and apply for MIT and they decide to accept you or not,and SAT exam can be took 2 or three times in a year,but about Konkoor(i describe it for Bs qualification for Msc all the rules are the same):
Bs konkoor students are examined for what they have studied during their high school,konkoor questions are separated in 7 different subjects(what i describe here is just for math and engineering fields subjects for those who want to study medicine or want to be a doctor is different in the second part of konkoor),in order they are:
first part:
1-literature:25 questions
2-Theology and Philosophy of Islam:25 questions
3-Arabic language:25 questions
4-English language:25 questions

at first part of konkoor they give you this 100 questions and you have 75 minutes to answer them.

second part:
5-math(algebra,differential equations,...): 55 questions
6-physics:45 questions
7-chemistry:35 questions

at second part of konkoor they give you this 135 questions and you have 175 minutes to answer them.

the scoring system in konkoor is not like SAT,in konkoor your performance in every subject is given by percentage out of 100,for example if in math you answer 80 percentage of questions correctly with no wrong answers your score in math would be"80" and so on,
normally average percentage of those whose rank is 1 to 100 among 400000 people that participated is between 80 percent and 90 percent,it means they answered 80 to 90 percentage of all the questions right.
after students have their percentages and their ranks about 60000 students among those 400000 students will get the right to go to university the rest(about 340000 students must try their chance in the next year konkoor),university entrance system is like this:

-the 1st student rank chooses the fileds and universities that he/she wants to go(since he /she is the first one for sure he/she can go every where he/she wants)
-after 1st rank student is done,second rank student will choose,after that third one after that ...,and in order from 1st rank to about 60000th rank students choose their fields and universities.

so it was all i knew about konkoor,if you had any other question about it ask and i will get the answer from my friend.

 

[John37]

Perhaps ,there are indeed many variables !

 

[Werg22]

"Konkoor" I find that name funny; adapted from French "concours" probably, which means contest.

 

[gholamghar]

"Konkoor" I find that name funny; adapted from French "concours" probably, which means contest.

i think you are right,because french literature and language have had a real effect in iran about 50 years ago,as i know the: foreign language that was taught in iran high schools in that time was french not english!

 

[gholamghar]

Perhaps ,there are indeed many variables !

when you said "perhaps" it means there is a probability that this guy is not genius,so what do you think are other variables that maybe has a roll in his success.variables like try,chance,...?

 

[rootX]

These kind of tests are normal in most Asian countries (India, China/HK, Japan, ...). I don't know about Iran one but I believe most of those countries have quite challenging tests.

Do you think this guy in Iran would be name a genius if he was in USA or first world

nonsense ...

Just because US doesn't have that tests that doesn't mean all US students are not that genius/capable of handling those intense competitive exams.

 

[cristo]

Do you think this guy in Iran would be name a genius if he was in USA or first world

No. Doing well in an entrance exam is not, to me at least, a sign of genius. (Note that he only came in the top 1% as well.. what about the 3500 who scored better than him that year?)

 

[Sorry!]

I don't think entrance exams are a measure of intellectual abilities or originality. Both of which I think are qualities 'genius'' have. They do however measure your memory capability... but I don't think that is an important quality to be able to be considered a genius.

Although I would assume most students who score well on these tests would qualify as a genius...

 

[gholamghar]

I don't think entrance exams are a measure of intellectual abilities or originality. Both of which I think are qualities 'genius'' have. They do however measure your memory capability... but I don't think that is an important quality to be able to be considered a genius.

Although I would assume most students who score well on these tests would qualify as a genius...

i think you are right except one part,Konkoor is a memory measuring exam in the first part(literature,arabic,english,theology),but in the second part just about 40 percent of the test is about memory,every year nearly 60 percent of all the questions are new and challenging.

although i believe in the whole concept you mentioned,entrance exams has often a repetitive algorithm and the results can get better if someone take the test for more than one year.

 

[Sorry!]

Well even for the math/physics you can always remember the tips/tricks to get fast answers instead of working out each answer quickly. I wasn't saying memory work of previous tests just memory work of remembering what your doing and when to do it. A student who studies math can definitely consistently do this. This in my opinion is not a genius. Just someone who is very book smart.

 

[Cyrus]

Has your friend done any significant research? If the answer is no, then he's not that special.

 

[gholamghar]

is a trier student as valuable as a genius in first world countries?
i mean you consider two students,first one is an ordinary person with an IQ of about 100 to 105,the second student is a genius with an IQ of 140 or more,and they take SAT exam,the first student is a heavily trier ,he reads his lessons 10 to 12 hours in a day and learns SAT exams of the 10 past years,and he tries a lot to learn and learn and learn to get good results at his up coming SAT exam,the second one due to being genius doesn't need to read that much maybe he reads necessary materials 2 or at maximum 3 hours in a day.then they take SAT and their score is the same for example they both get 2300,
and consider their GPA is the same but one has got these results for his huge trying the other one has got it for being genius,
now you tell me if you had the authority to accept one of them for example for studying in MIT mechanical engineering school which one would you choose the trier or the genius?or you think they have equal right for being in MIT?and please mention why you have this opinion?(for sure the assumption is they both intend to study in MIT mechanical engineering school)

 

[Sorry!]

If I were the university I wouldn't be able to tell which was the genius or which was the student.

If the genius DID however want to get into MIT in a competitive program (I'm from Canada all university programs are competitive based idk about in America.) I would assume
a) he would try harder (it doesn't take a genius to understand that if you want to get into these programs you should try..)
or
b) he would probably have pre-acceptance to universities due to OUTSTANDING work in school

But even so, if I were in a position to decide which went to MIT I would choose the genius. This person is GIFTED and is just not living up to their potential, possibly because they aren't interested. Put one of these people into a field that they enjoy and BOOM BAM.
Just because this other guy tried so hard doesn't mean anything to me because I know his IQ is 100-105 and the others is 140+. If the genius showed interest in this area then I would pressume he would be able to offer the most in return through research etc.

 

[Cyrus]

gholamghar, I already answered your question. Go back and read my post.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

is a trier student as valuable as a genius in first world countries?
i mean you consider two students,first one is an ordinary person with an IQ of about 100 to 105,the second student is a genius with an IQ of 140 or more,and they take SAT exam,the first student is a heavily trier ,he reads his lessons 10 to 12 hours in a day and learns SAT exams of the 10 past years,and he tries a lot to learn and learn and learn to get good results at his up coming SAT exam,the second one due to being genius doesn't need to read that much maybe he reads necessary materials 2 or at maximum 3 hours in a day.then they take SAT and their score is the same for example they both get 2300,
and consider their GPA is the same but one has got these results for his huge trying the other one has got it for being genius,
now you tell me if you had the authority to accept one of them for example for studying in MIT mechanical engineering school which one would you choose the trier or the genius?or you think they have equal right for being in MIT?and please mention why you have this opinion?(for sure the assumption is they both intend to study in MIT mechanical engineering school)

My stepfather is an engineer and I am quite certain that he would prefer the hardworker to the genius. That would probably be a general attitude among engineers since they are more practical minded. The schools on the other hand are a different story. It all depends on who is running admissions.
As noted by Cy and Sorry there are other considerations. Colleges like good grade histories, participation in student activities, participation in scholastic competitions, ect. If the hard worker had to spend all of his time studying just to get good grades in high school (not sure of the equivalent in Iran) to the exclusion of any other student activities they may see that as a bad sign since college is far more demanding.

 

[gholamghar]

If the hard worker had to spend all of his time studying just to get good grades in high school (not sure of the equivalent in Iran) to the exclusion of any other student activities they may see that as a bad sign since college is far more demanding.

in Iran for get good results in Konkoor is exactly like that,if someone has an IQ less than 110(this is not an exact measurement but i think it is right for most persons) and wants to get good results in Konkoor (for example ranks between 1 to 2000) he/she must read his/her lessons 8 to 12 hours in every day for about one year(365 days),and it means at least one year of your life will completely be dedicated to Konkoor.

 

[gholamghar]

Has your friend done any significant research? If the answer is no, then he's not that special.

the final project(honor project) that he did in his Bs(if i am not wrong it was about piping under sea) is accepted and printed by ISI journals.
(i don't know what i said makes sense or not but in Iran all the students and professors wish to have their work accepted by ISI journals)

 

[MATLABdude]

in Iran for get good results in Konkoor is exactly like that,if someone has an IQ less than 110(this is not an exact measurement but i think it is right for most persons) and wants to get good results in Konkoor (for example ranks between 1 to 2000) he/she must read his/her lessons 8 to 12 hours in every day for about one year(365 days),and it means at least one year of your life will completely be dedicated to Konkoor.

Hmmm... That might further confirm the 'memorization / practice' aspect that one of the other posters mentioned in this thread. IQ testing generally aim for repeatability--no matter how hard you practice / prepare, you get roughly the same result every time on the array of tests that they give you.

I believe the old SAT (back when it was only 1600) claimed that your score was bracketed within 100 pts--regardless of how many times you take it (obviously, not taking the exact same SAT test). However, I don't believe you see the intensive test preparation 'institutes' that you see in India or Japan, or wherever (or at least, their utilization by a large portion of the test-taking population). Nor the attendant societal regard for these (make your life, or break it) test.

There's been a concern that the percentage of those who took the IIT-JEE (Indian Institute of Technology Joint Entrance Examination) who used these intensive prep courses / institutes were skewing results, and hence entrance. So there's been an effort towards making it less about coaching, and more to figure out where you lie compared to your peers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Technology_Joint_Entrance_Examination

 

[Sorry!]

Hmmm... That might further confirm the 'memorization / practice' aspect that one of the other posters mentioned in this thread. IQ testing generally aim for repeatability--no matter how hard you practice / prepare, you get roughly the same result every time on the array of tests that they give you.

I believe the old SAT (back when it was only 1600) claimed that your score was bracketed within 100 pts--regardless of how many times you take it (obviously, not taking the exact same SAT test). However, I don't believe you see the intensive test preparation 'institutes' that you see in India or Japan, or wherever (or at least, their utilization by a large portion of the test-taking population). Nor the attendant societal regard for these (make your life, or break it) test.

There's been a concern that the percentage of those who took the IIT-JEE (Indian Institute of Technology Joint Entrance Examination) who used these intensive prep courses / institutes were skewing results, and hence entrance. So there's been an effort towards making it less about coaching, and more to figure out where you lie compared to your peers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Technology_Joint_Entrance_Examination

Thanks, was just about to post this.

A thing to think about though gholamghar is that we are by no means asserting that your friend is NOT a genius. We are saying we won't throw that title around loosely to everyone who does well on entrance exams, which as you can tell by reading our posts is not an indication of intellectual abilities/originality. Which is major to being regarded as a 'genius'.

As well, as Cy pointed out, he would have to have made an ORIGINAL claim to the world in most cases to receive title of genius otherwise he just mingles with the crowd of other exceptional people who do well on entrance exams and even write papers that are published. I feel confident that I could write a paper and have it published does that make ME a genius (if I had in fact gone in done this not the fact that I can imagine doing it lol).

Nope. I was however considered much above average after being tested in school and was requested to skip 2 grades or go to MODE school (school for the gifted). I would never consider myself a genius though. Thats a very elite group reserved for people who make differences in this world with their ideas in any area of thought whether its music, physics, engineering, chemistry... you get the point.

 

[gholamghar]

Thats a very elite group reserved for people who make differences in this world with their ideas in any area of thought whether its music, physics, engineering, chemistry... you get the point.

please correct me if i have understand it wrong:

you suggest that the word "genius" is not just dedicated to high IQ people,if a person has a low IQ even about 100 or less but he/she makes a big difference in this world with his/her ideas and a lot of dependency on "try" not with his/her ideas and a lot of dependency on "having a high IQ" this person is called a "genius" ,
in fact you suggest the word genius must be dedicated to someone that makes a big difference with any IQ level,and "low IQ but trier people" have the equal chance of being named genius if they invent or find out something really effective,and a man like Chris Langan should not be named genius because he lacks from being effective.

(although it is obvious the more IQ someone has the more chance to make a difference he has)

 

[Cyrus]

gholamghar, really. Why do you care about this so much- What does it matter?

 

[gholamghar]

and even write papers that are published. I feel confident that I could write a paper and have it published does that make ME a genius (if I had in fact gone in done this not the fact that I can imagine doing it lol).

i found this really interesting,you talked about papers so that they are in the second position in comparison with doing something big(and it is for sure),the thing that was interesting to me was:
in Iran universities almost nobody is after the real science,or bringing about life changing inventions in order to make a big difference,in there almost every body(students,professors,...) uses science for getting positions and having authorities and they are in a wrong competitive way,they are more after scoring with their papers rather than making big differences,and this is what i call it "dirty science",you see professors that have 80 even 300 papers that have been published in ISI journals but none of them is really that big,but these persons because have more scores (as you know professors will get points for their papers especially if they are printed in ISI journals) and have a lot of papers are like legends in Iran! papers are behaved like money in there!the more you have the more famous,the more legendary,the more genius-called you are.
and when you talked about papers as not being that huge it really made me to think that in first worlds professors and students are more after doing something effective rather than getting scores and it was really interesting to me to see such a open and right minded people here.( i myself had 2 years of my university education in Iran)

 

[MATLABdude]

please correct me if i have understand it wrong:

you suggest that the word "genius" is not just dedicated to high IQ people,if a person has a low IQ even about 100 or less but he/she makes a big difference in this world with his/her ideas and a lot of dependency on "try" not with his/her ideas and a lot of dependency on "having a high IQ" this person is called a "genius" ,
in fact you suggest the word genius must be dedicated to someone that makes a big difference with any IQ level,and "low IQ but trier people" have the equal chance of being named genius if they invent or find out something really effective,and a man like Chris Langan should not be named genius because he lacks from being effective.

(although it is obvious the more IQ someone has the more chance to make a difference he has)

Dictionary.com (based off of the Random House Dictionary) lists several definitions for the noun genius:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genius

1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc.: the genius of Mozart.
2. a person having such capacity.
3. a person having an extraordinarily high intelligence rating on a psychological test, as an IQ above 140.
4. natural ability or capacity; strong inclination: a special genius for leadership.
5. distinctive character or spirit, as of a nation, period, or language.
6. the guardian spirit of a place, institution, etc.
7. either of two mutually opposed spirits, one good and the other evil, supposed to attend a person throughout life.
8. a person who strongly influences for good or ill the character, conduct, or destiny of a person, place, or thing: Rasputin, the evil genius of Russian politics.
9. genie (defs. 1, 3).

I think definition 1 is most pertinent here. Exceptional natural capacity of intellect, demonstrated through creative and original works. Mankind, being mankind, likes to quantify things, and that's why the IQ test was developed--how do we measure intelligence, quantify genius, and identify those who might have this potential, or those on the opposite end of the spectrum?

So, regardless of that first definition and the requirement for producing works, anybody that scores above 140 on an IQ test is usually considered a genius (i.e. a genius level IQ). It might be argued that high IQ gives you the capacity for genius, however, those people that demonstrate singular abilities in various fields (art, medicine and science, etc.) often do indeed have high IQ. And the work ethic to see their works through.

Supposedly, Kitty Oppenheimer, wife of J. Robert Oppenheimer (the physicist in charge of building the atomic bomb) had an IQ over 200 (which was higher than his)--somewhere within the top 0.01 to 0.000001% of IQs. Yet what did she produce?
http://www.iqsociety.org/general/IQchart.pdf