Does The Noble Qur'an (Koran)

  • #51
Lisa!
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Ok arildno, you redeem yourself. :wink: I thought you were commenting on a subject which you don't have any information about that personaly! Like what most of people do. I think we should never generalize anything. We can't say all muslems are bad or good. Or people who believe in Islam, can't be open-minded...
I don't know if you're a religious person or not And I don't want to know because it's not in my bussiness. But anyway I think you should respect other people opinions. Humans are free to choose any religion they want and you're not allowed to disrespect their ideas.Even if they sound stupid or whatever to you.
Ok I'd better to saty quiet after all because for sure you know these better than me! :blushing:



arildno said:
depends on the individual.
Exactly like other people.
 
  • #52
arildno
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Lisa!, and Bilal:
The fact that we (I) may object in principle to elements of a particular thought-system's tenets on moral (or other) grounds, should not ever be taken to that extreme that every one of those individuals ascribing themselves to that thought-system is guilty of some heinous immoral action.

To take a case with a particular thought-system so evil that it is an insult to compare any other thought-systems with it: Nazism in 1930's Germany

Most of the Germans regarding themselves as Nazis (the majority of the German population) were more concerned in their lives with creating good living conditions for their children (a basic tenet within Nazism, and just about any other thought-system) than going about hating Jews.
It doesn't follow that because most native Germans sympathetic to Nazism at this time were regular, decent folk in their private lives that Nazism itself was an ideology we should regard with any sort of sympathy, nor should our justified antipathy towards Nazism lead us to regard every adult living in Germany at that time as a heinous immoralist and murderer of Jews.
 
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  • #53
Lisa!
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arildno said:
Lisa!, and Bilal:
The fact that we (I) may object in principle to elements of a particular thought-system's tenets on moral (or other) grounds, should not ever be taken to that extreme that every one of those individuals ascribing themselves to that thought-system is guilty of some heinous immoral action.

To take a case with a particular thought-system so evil that it is an insult to compare any other thought-systems with it: Nazism in 1930's Germany

Most of the Germans regarding themselves as Nazis (the majority of the German population) were more concerned in their lives with creating good living conditions for their children (a basic tenet within Nazism, and just about any other thought-system) than going about hating Jews.
It doesn't follow that because most native Germans sympathetic to Nazism at this time were regular, decent folk in their private lives that Nazism itself was an ideology we should regard with any sort of sympathy, nor should our justified antipathy towards Nazism lead us to regard every adult living in Germany at that time as a heinous immoralist and murderer of Jews.

You always bring Nazis as an example for any issue. Anyway I want to go out of here because I have a terrible headache! And I don't want to get involved in political discussions. A very wise person has said "Never discuss about religion and politics with your friends!" And I agree with him. Because it usually doent do any good and sometimes you even may lose your friends!


Regards
 
  • #54
arildno
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Just to make it clear: There is nothing in Islam which makes it in any way comparable to Nazism, IMO.

Lisa! said:
You always bring Nazis as an example for any issue.
Because it is a historical occurrence which raises a number of perennially relevant questions for any society.
But, I'll stop here.
 
  • #55
The bottom line is, that when people are ignorant they can't go deeper in their religion, and hence they beleive any big words said to them because they simply want to go to heaven after they die...So there r moderate muslims who know how to maintain their normal life according to what they do beleive in, and what their religion forbid them to do...

There's a forbidden list made by preachers for those who cannot read or understand themselves, but this only results on what u see, there r many ignorant preachers though, i was watching TV once and they were talking about a preacher that told people lies and false visions and oracles...

So in order not to go further into details i ignore, the dark ages in Europe were caused by ignorance, following the lead of the curch, the church leader did what they want not for the sake of God but for the sake of being Rich, people knew **** but they still followed fearing that if they disobeyed get imprisoned or worse, spend their eternal life in hell..It's quite the same here, people are born muslims, they know nothing, live in emptiness, they follow the 1st one who gives a hand..Regardless of the consequences...

Back to topic, i don't think there's something in qur'an related to bombardments and suicides...But if there is than all those people who r thought to have the greater knowledge of their religion are double faced liars, saying what satisfies people..but i don't think so.
 
  • #56
Bilal
hmmmmm

So what I have to do to confirm that I studied Koran and religion for only 90 minutes/week.

If you talk about ''religious school'' then it is another topic, and these schools are non governmental and exist in poor areas in South Asia.


arildno said:
Well, I don't believe you.
In Norway, there are several problems with young Muslim boys who must attend Quran school for 3-4 hours after ordinary shool, and have precious little time to do their homework.
 
  • #57
Bilal
They do not speak Arabic because they are not Arab, so they gave religious lessons in their own languages. Every educated Arab should know classical Arabic because it is the language of the media and books.

arildno said:
This is simply a proof of what I said: Most muslims, including secular leaders do NOT understand Classical Arabic.
 
  • #58
arildno
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Bilal said:
hmmmmm

So what I have to do to confirm that I studied Koran and religion for only 90 minutes/week.

If you talk about ''religious school'' then it is another topic, and these schools are non governmental and exist in poor areas in South Asia.
Well, I certainly believe what you tell of yourself!;
Since most of the Muslim immigrants in Norway have arrived from poor areas in the countryside (say, for example, certain districts in Pakistan), it may well be that they have brought along local ways of teaching Islam which are uncommon/unheard of in your country.
In that case, I apologize for making unfounded generalizations.
 
  • #59
Bilal
I agree with your post in general.

I think there is political background for each conflict, but for some reasons Islam float on the wave in recent years, here is summary of suicide bombers attacks in ME:

1) 1956: Essam Muwel , Syrian Christian : he attacked French ship bomber during Suez war.
2) Sanaa Muhaidly : 1982, Lebanese (leftist-may be Christian?) : she bombed Israel military target during the Israeli invasion to her country ...
3) 1983: Islamic Shia militants started their attacks against Marines and French forces in Lebanon.
4) 1994, Palestinian attacked for the first time a civilian Israeli target as a revenge for ''Hebron massacre’’. During the Holy month of Ramadan, an American Jews extremist, Dr Barukh Goldstein, attacked the Abrahimic mosque in Hebron and murdered 29 Palestinian.
6) 1996, Alqaeda started the suicide attacks against American military targets in Saudi Arabia
7) 1997 Alqaeda started their attacks against American civilian targets in Africa
8) 2001 : Alqaeda attacked American civilians on their soil.
9) 2002: Alqaeda started their attacks against Muslims and non Muslims in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Morocco ...

If we check the history of these attacks in ME, we will realize that the first two attacks were done by Arab Christian but against pure military target and during ''defensive wars".
The second two attacks also against military targets, Marines and French forces , 1983 Beirut, but these forces suppose to be peace keepers.

Palestinian targeted Israeli civilian in 1994, as part of ''national resistance '' against the occupation.... (In spite of that, many Palestinian and Muslims could not agree with targeting Israeli civilians)

Finally , Alqaeda started attacks against every human, Muslims or non Muslims !! They gave strong religious factor to their attacks..... and they are hated by many Muslims because of their religious extremism , which NEVER known in all the Islamic history (Thanks to Afghanistan war!).

This historical background shows how suicide bombers started as decent fighting against the invaders and end with religious attacks against Muslims and non Muslims by unpopular groups whom have been rejected by their nations, and who never get such power without CIA support in 80s against USSR.

Frankly, Muslims need to declare jihad against Alqaeda and its ideas, but the stupid invasion of Iraq created 100 Alqaeda ....

Bush is religious man who think that his father (the god) asked him to invade the Iraq and (axis of evil) , and OBL think that the god ordered him to bomb USA and its alliance till they withdraw from the Islamic world.

I can see little difference between both

Nomy-the wanderer said:
The bottom line is, that when people are ignorant they can't go deeper in their religion, and hence they beleive any big words said to them because they simply want to go to heaven after they die...So there r moderate muslims who know how to maintain their normal life according to what they do beleive in, and what their religion forbid them to do...

There's a forbidden list made by preachers for those who cannot read or understand themselves, but this only results on what u see, there r many ignorant preachers though, i was watching TV once and they were talking about a preacher that told people lies and false visions and oracles...

So in order not to go further into details i ignore, the dark ages in Europe were caused by ignorance, following the lead of the curch, the church leader did what they want not for the sake of God but for the sake of being Rich, people knew **** but they still followed fearing that if they disobeyed get imprisoned or worse, spend their eternal life in hell..It's quite the same here, people are born muslims, they know nothing, live in emptiness, they follow the 1st one who gives a hand..Regardless of the consequences...

Back to topic, i don't think there's something in qur'an related to bombardments and suicides...But if there is than all those people who r thought to have the greater knowledge of their religion are double faced liars, saying what satisfies people..but i don't think so.
 
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  • #60
Bilal
I can compare Alqaeda with Hashshashin in 11th century (during crusaders wars). Muslims declared Jihad on this terrorist Muslim group till they annihilated them after 3 centuries.

In that time Muslims were strong and the most powerful force in the world, unlike their situation now.

http://web.linix.ca/pedia/index.php/Hashshashin [Broken]
 
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