Is History Repeating Itself?

[Spin_Network]

Contain any reference to Suicide and or Bombs?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

Is it a written word contained in such a Holy Book, or is it really just the formulation from a bad educated, ideological human trait such as ego?

Thanks to all for the feedback, it amazes me that there are so many angles of interpretation, some very positive and some very negative. I hope to find the right balance, I feel it lay's somewhere in understanding Human rationale, and Circumstance.

I do not think that Human actions are dictated via a spiritual, 'virtual-Reality' communication system, that seems to be dispatched to so 'few' and 'chosen' wise old men (there seems to be a consensus of gender hierarchy based on gender exclusion, across all facets of society, and every corner of life), men who take it upon themselves to be holy in some form of other.

Why are Spiritual words, written in many formats, across all corners of the globe, spreading the words of (Love, Peace, Goodwill to all Humans )..not actually met with real-time actions? (Hate, War, Badwill ) seems to be the most prevelant actions, that speaks louder than words.

 

[Pengwuino]

I wouldn't think it has any mention of bombs... seeing as... well... fairly recent weapon as far as widespread use is concerned.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The problem with written words that are purported to be the word of god is that they ALL lead themselves open to interpretation from the umballanced.

Does the Bible mention killing Phillistines, scorching Soddom and Gemorrah etc.

Where did we get Hymns like 'Onward Christian Soldiers', The Inquisition, Witch Burning, the 'dark ages' etc.

Who first sang 'Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition'?

Get a person with a charismatic personality with a sever disorder and you can get Winnie the Pooh to say what you want it to and convince others of your truth... Koresh, Jim Jones, Smith, Torquemada ... the list goes on.

Lao Si was said to be really 'pissed' when conered into writing the two books known as the Dao De Qing specifically for this reason... And wouldn't you know it ... modern Daoists have some really bizaar practices because of it.

 

[Spin_Network]

The problem with written words that are purported to be the word of god is that they ALL lead themselves open to interpretation from the umballanced.

Care to expand on the spoken/written TRUTH according to the Chinese learned?

I am well clued up on chinese fantasy, [Monkey/Water Margin/Crou-ching Tiger..etc..etc..], being that most of the history of China has has to resort to this form of communication.

Question?..why is the internet being blocked internally within China?..to protect Truth?

 

[yourdadonapogostick]

i don't think it does considering suicide is one of the worst sins in islam. and killing others is even worse.

 

[sid_galt]

From the Koran

“Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (9:29)

What more needs to be said?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Care to expand on the spoken/written TRUTH according to the Chinese learned?

I am well clued up on chinese fantasy, [Monkey/Water Margin/Crou-ching Tiger..etc..etc..], being that most of the history of China has has to resort to this form of communication.

Question?..why is the internet being blocked internally within China?..to protect Truth?

Thanks for the demonstration of irrational prejudices based on ignorance by the way.

Your parents must be proud.

I am reminded of the old master who fills his potential student's cup and then continues to pour even after it overflows.

Given your statements disguised as questions, I can see that responding would be a waste when you have already decided on the answer.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Apearantly there is.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411366/600774

The problem with written words that are purported to be the word of god is that they ALL lead themselves open to interpretation from the umballanced.

Care to expand on the spoken/written TRUTH according to the Chinese learned?

As far as I know most religious texts are considered to be open for interpretation. That's why most religions temples and churches have a group of people whose job is specifically to interpret the texts. So even churches themselves, though perhaps not for the same reasons, do not think it's wise to allow just anyone to interpret religious documents.

 

[vanesch]

Contain any reference to Suicide and or Bombs?

I'd be highly surprised that "suicide bomber" appears in a text, written by *humans* far before the first bomb was invented... You could just as well ask if there is any reference to cellular telephones.

 

[Bilal]

In Islam, several things are clear:
• Suicide is forbidden. "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).
• The taking of life is allowed only by way of justice (i.e. the death penalty for murder), but even then, forgiveness is better. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33).
• In pre-Islamic Arabia, retaliation and mass murder was commonplace. If someone was killed, the victim's tribe would retaliate against the murderer's entire tribe. This practice was directly forbidden in the Qur'an (2:178-179). Following this statement of law, the Qur'an says, "After this, whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave chastisement" (2:178). No matter what wrong we perceive as being done against us, we may not lash out against an entire population of people.
• The Qur'an admonishes those who oppress others and transgress beyond the bounds of what is right and just. "The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice. For such there will be a chastisement grievous (in the Hereafter)" (42:42).
• Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.

 

[sid_galt]

Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.

Then can you explain the quote I posted? It makes no distinction between fighters and non-fighters only between Muslims and non-Muslims.

 

[Bilal]

I am not scholar in Islam, but I rise as Muslim and I feel it is my duty to explain such misleading conclusions.

Verses that mentioned in ''Surat Barah'' , or chapter 9 represnted ''especial case'' in wars ''urgent rules". At that moment Muslims were under intensive attack from pagan-Jews alliance, thus he Koran asked the Muslims soldiers to fight bravely the invaders and to stop them. After the end of the war, who want from them to stay in the Muslims-controlled areas he/she should pay ''Jezya'' which is small percentage of what Muslims should pay ''Zakat = 2.5% of total money of rich people". Obviously poor non Muslims are treated the same as poor Muslims and they receive salary from ''Bait Al mal = company which collect Zakat from rich Muslims and Jezya from rich non Muslims''.

Since crusaders wars in the 12th century , non Muslims stopped paying Jezya (especially Orthodox Christian and Jews) because they joined the Muslims armies to fight against the Crusaders.

Here general verses about the rules of wars in Islam:

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors."
- Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2:190)
008.061
“ But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)”.
- Qur'an, Surah Al-Anfal (8:61)

. "O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety."
- Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8)

What more needs to be said?Quote:
From the Koran

“Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (9:29)

 

[Bilal]

Dear sid_galt,

To evaluate the Islamic rules in middle ages you should compare them with what Crusaders, Mongolian , Roman and Persian rules not with the ‘’European constitution 2005!”.

May be Islamic rules in Middle Ages do not ask for 100 % equal rights among the citizens, but if you compare it with Crusaders or Mongolian rules, then they are very civilized!

Muslims ruled and setteled in many parts in South of Europe (e.g Spain and Italy) for centuries, but they were annihilated completely under catholic rule, while Christian (including the crusaders) and Jews lived in ME for 13 centuries with few troubles.

Modern Muslims countries have chance to use the ‘’liberal Koran verses’’, they can find verses which support democracy, human rights and even to stop the death punishment, MDW ... etc

It is up to Muslims how to intemperate these verses... and which verses they want to follow.

For example, OBL follow the verses of Koran: ((Punish them in the same way they harm you)), or something like ‘’eye for eye’’ . He believes that USA murder many civilians so he can do the same.

 

[Bilal]

In Islam Kafir ‘’which is translated as non believer’’ refer to ‘’ aggressive non Muslims’’ who want to fight Muslims.
Muslims believe that every human born as ‘’Muslims’’ then under the effect of the family he/she change the religion.

Here another Koran verse which you can not find in Christianity and Judaism :

Koran, Chapter/Surah 2, Al-Baqarah, the Cow, Verse 62:

"Those who believe (Muslims), the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabeans - whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and do good deeds, theyshall have their reward from the Lord, and shall have nothing to fear, nor shall they come to grief"

Muslims understand this verse in different ways, but at least it accepted the other religions and give the ‘’judgment’’ only for the god.

 

[sid_galt]

I am not scholar in Islam, but I rise as Muslim and I feel it is my duty to explain such misleading conclusions.

Verses that mentioned in ''Surat Barah'' , or chapter 9 represnted ''especial case'' in wars ''urgent rules". At that moment Muslims were under intensive attack from pagan-Jews alliance, thus he Koran asked the Muslims soldiers to fight bravely the invaders and to stop them. After the end of the war, who want from them to stay in the Muslims-controlled areas he/she should pay ''Jezya'' which is small percentage of what Muslims should pay ''Zakat = 2.5% of total money of rich people".

1. The conditions occurring at that time do not justify the existence of a verse in the Koran which demands that Jizya be always imposed on non-Muslims and they should be subdued regardless of the fact that it refers to war or not. Not all wars are fought between Muslims and Non-Muslims.

2. Is it mentioned specifically in the Koran that Chapter 9 should be considered ONLY in the case of war? If yes then how does the Koran define war?

3. Further, if this quotation refers ONLY to war even in times of war, does the Koran consider it permissible to subdue those who are

As for your other posts, the nature of other regimes does not make the Caliphate or the present day islamofascists more or less guilty.
E.g. The Mongols were barbarians. That doesn't make OBL or the Nazis less barbaric or immoral.

 

[Lisa!]

What more needs to be said?

My history isn't good but I think Spain or a part of southern Europe was under muslem's control for some years. So base on what you say they should have been killed all the people in spain who didn't accept their religion. So a Spain should have lots of muslems now but I don't think they do!

 

[Smurf]

My history isn't good but I think Spain or a part of southern Europe was under muslem's control for some years. So base on what you say they should have been killed all the people in spain who didn't accept their religion. So a Spain should have lots of muslems now but I don't think they do!

Only because the christians went down there and killed/kicked out/converted all the muslims during the spanish reconquista, not to mention that was over 400 years ago... and let's not forget the inquisition.

 

[Smurf]

What more needs to be said?

Well one could ask what exactly 'Allah' means, what constitutes a believer, one could wonder why you put brackets in, (If you're trying to add your own diction square brackets should be used: "[ ]" not round ones.). A person could, of course, do a quick google and find several other different translations with quite a few differences between them. And even after that one has to mumble over undirect phrases like (from your translation) "feel themselves subdued".

 

[Lisa!]

Only because the christians went down there and killed/kicked out/converted all the muslims during the spanish reconquista, not to mention that was over 400 years ago... and let's not forget the inquisition.

Ok so you admited that christians killed or converted all the muslems. So What do you think of christians' Bible? You don't want to say it convince killing people with other ideas, do you?
You say it was about 400 years ago but they must be lots of muslems there.Anyway I don't think muslems killl christians at that time. in order to convert them. At least I didn't read anywhere. But I've read a lot about bloody history of the church at that time. Although we all believe that Jesus was the prophet of mercy not violence!


You know I don't think any religion in the world convinces its followers to kill others. It's a matter of politicians. They're always trying to find ways to convince people what they're doing is right. So sometimes they use their religious beliefs. They want to start a war , so they try to say it's your religion duty and so on...

 

[The Smoking Man]

Only because the christians went down there and killed/kicked out/converted all the muslims during the spanish reconquista, not to mention that was over 400 years ago... and let's not forget the inquisition.

Gee ... She Didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

BaDAAAAAAAA!

Nobody expects the Spanish inquisituon!

( He says expecting not to be the pnly Python fan on the block)

 

[Lisa!]

Is anyone around here able to speak Arabic?

Gee ... She Didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

I wanted to get more information about that time.

 

[Bilal]

1. The conditions occurring at that time do not justify the existence of a verse in the Koran which demands that Jizya be always imposed on non-Muslims and they should be subdued regardless of the fact that it refers to war or not. Not all wars are fought between Muslims and Non-Muslims.

So if non Muslims should not pay Jezya , why I have as Muslim to pay 2.5 % of money to poor people (Muslims and non Muslims)?
Non Muslims had to choose: to join the army of the State or to pay tax ...

This mean that Muslims should pay Zakat (higher than Jezya) and to join the army, while non Muslims have to choose: paying jezya or to join the army...

I wish you can see who really got more rights!

At least the msulims did not ''isolate'' their citizens from the eastern christian in camps during the 200 years of Crusaders wars as the American did with "American -Japanese'' in 2WW. This will be the fate of American-Muslims if the terrorist attacks increases ...

Is it mentioned specifically in the Koran that Chapter 9 should be considered ONLY in the case of war? If yes then how does the Koran define war? .

To be under attack …

3. Further, if this quotation refers ONLY to war even in times of war, does the Koran consider it permissible to subdue those who are.

From history, nations who lost the war with Muslims became the leaders within few years. So we can not call them as nations under occupations, simply Muslims succeeded to ‘’win hearts and minds’’ quickly:

- After fall of North Africa by 10 years, the leadership of the greatest Islamic armies became in the hand of ‘’Berber’’, native people of North Africa. His name is Tarik Iben Ziad.
- After 91 years of Arab Caliphate, Persian and Turks control the Abbasid Caliphate … and then Mamluk (eastern European).
- During crusaders wars the first Muslim leader was Kurd ‘’Saladin’’ and then Turks (Ottoman Empire)) ….
- Even Mongolian converted to Islam in the 14th century and became the leaders in south Asia (India).

So these nations who lost the wars, barber, Kurds, Turks, Persian, Mongolian … etc, became leader of the Islamic State within few decades. Such strategy never exists with other nations,( e.g Red Indian and early white settlers … or native Australian people . )

As for your other posts, the nature of other regimes does not make the Caliphate or the present day islamofascists more or less guilty.
E.g. The Mongols were barbarians. That doesn't make OBL or the Nazis less barbaric or immoral. .

We have no islamofascists regimes, we have secular dictatorships and theocratic corrupted royal families who ‘’made in USA and in UK” to oppress their nations and to protect the American interests. If the American feel that one of those regimes is not working enough for their interests, e.g. Saddam after the end of his war with Iran, then they destroy his country and nation to liberate them from their former agent!

 

[Smurf]

Ok so you admited that christians killed or converted all the muslems. So What do you think of christians' Bible? You don't want to say it convince killing people with other ideas, do you?

No, I stated that it is historical fact that Christians re-conquered spain and killed a lot of muslims as well as forcing conversions and extraditing a lot of them. (Emphasis on 'a lot').

They were called the moors and they had just conquered it from the visigoths (christians). That's why it's called the spanish reconquista, they were reconquering it.

Is anyone around here able to speak Arabic?

Yes

I wanted to get more information about that time.

As always, wiki is your friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

 

[Bilal]

Yes Lisa!, Arabic is my native language.

Is anyone around here able to speak Arabic?

QUOTE]

 

[Lisa!]

No, I stated that it is historical fact that Christians re-conquered spain and killed a lot of muslims as well as forcing conversions and extraditing a lot of them. (Emphasis on 'a lot')
Yes

Who? I Think Bilal is able. But is there anyone else?

As always, wiki is your friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Thanks!

 

[Bilal]

Also Catholic killed or kicked out the Jews and orthodox Christian. Thanks to Muslims in that time who sent many ships to transfer the Jews and orthodox Christian to Near East and North Africa.

Orthodox Christian in near East (Palestine, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan) are more patriot than Muslims because they never forget that Muslims who saved them from Crusaders and catholic church in Spain, while most of Jews ‘for unknown reasons are doing the opposite ...

 

[Lisa!]

Yeas Lisa!, Arabic is my native language.

Is anyone around here able to speak Arabic?

QUOTE]

Ok, so you can tell us more about Koran. About the others, I think if they can't speak Arabic, they shouldn't be too sure of what they say. Because translation could change the meaning. We can have different understanding of one single quote which is said in our language. Now how can we be sure that the translator understood what koran means in the first hand? He may misunderstand it un/deliberately!

 

[arildno]

To pick out just one piece of thoroughly immoral thinking in Islam:
It is regarded as an act of blasphemy to translate the Quran into another language.
This has a deleterious effect on the educational system in many Islamic countries:
Young boys are required to go to Quran school in order to memorize suras they don't understand what means (most muslims today do not understand Old Arabic).

This is a waste of resources; young brains which should have received intellectual stimulation wither as a result of this nonsensical practice.

Furthermore, the mullahs gain an unhealthy position of authority, since they are basically the only ones able to read the Quran, and tell others what it reputedly says.

 

[Smurf]

Yeah? And let me guess.. it's the mullahs that told people it couldn't be translated?

 

[Art]

To pick out just one piece of thoroughly immoral thinking in Islam:
It is regarded as an act of blasphemy to translate the Quran into another language.
This has a deleterious effect on the educational system in many Islamic countries:
Young boys are required to go to Quran school in order to memorize suras they don't understand what means (most muslims today do not understand Old Arabic).

This is a waste of resources; young brains which should have received intellectual stimulation wither as a result of this nonsensical practice.

Furthermore, the mullahs gain an unhealthy position of authority, since they are basically the only ones able to read the Quran, and tell others what it reputedly says.

Up until the fairly recent past all catholic masses were conducted in Latin. Not exactly the every day language of your average catholic church goer. - Immoral?
France too over the past few years has passed legislation to prevent any further anglization of their language to protect it. - Is this immoral too?
In Ireland there are areas where you can live only if you are a fluent Gaelic speaker. - Yet more immorality?

 

[Lisa!]

To pick out just one piece of thoroughly immoral thinking in Islam:
It is regarded as an act of blasphemy to translate the Quran into another language.

It could be what Mullahs say. So you can't blame Islam for that.But Wait a minute, How do you know?

This has a deleterious effect on the educational system in many Islamic countries:
Young boys are required to go to Quran school in order to memorize suras they don't understand what means (most muslims today do not understand Old Arabic).

Give me some example? I mean which countries?

Furthermore, the mullahs gain an unhealthy position of authority, since they are basically the only ones able to read the Quran, and tell others what it reputedly says.

I think it's the main problem. They try to gain more authority by mistranslating Koran. And I think all religions have the same problem!

 

[Spin_Network]

Thanks for the demonstration of irrational prejudices based on ignorance by the way.

Your parents must be proud.

I am reminded of the old master who fills his potential student's cup and then continues to pour even after it overflows.

Given your statements disguised as questions, I can see that responding would be a waste when you have already decided on the answer.

My statements are not based on Truth, they may be factual as far as I am aware, and you may be offended by this, and conclude it a (waste-of-time), but it does not detract away into pure Fantasy, beit Religous, Social or Philosophical.

If I learn, I learn by the freedom of thought I can enjoy, without any master weilding an instrument of force, be-it a magic wand, bamboo stick, rifle butt or even a Bible.

I won't be bashed in any form, if you do not like the heat?...get out of the forum.

 

[arildno]

|Up until the fairly recent past all catholic masses were conducted in Latin. Not exactly the every day language of your average catholic church goer. - Immoral?

Quite correct.
It is fortunate that we've seen the end of this despicable practice in the West.

France too over the past few years has passed legislation to prevent any further anglization of their language to protect it. - Is this immoral too?

Eeh, what has this to do with preventing ordinary individuals direct access to sources of codes of morality so that they may scrutinize these by themselves, rather than being dependent upon the interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"?

In Ireland there are areas where you can live only if you are a fluent Gaelic speaker. - Yet more immorality?

Eeh, what has this to do with preventing ordinary individuals direct access to sources of codes of morality so that they may scrutinize these by themselves, rather than being dependent upon the interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"?

 

[arildno]

It could be what Mullahs say. So you can't blame Islam for that.But Wait a minute, How do you know?

The suras are reputedly the very words whispered by God to Muhammad during his trances. Thus, to change God's own words by translating them is to profanize them; they are no longer holy, but contaminated by the action of the translator.
Ask any Muslim.

 

[Art]

Quite correct.
It is fortunate that we've seen the end of this despicable practice in the West.

Eeh, what has this to do with preventing ordinary individuals direct access to sources of codes of morality so that they may scrutinize these by themselves, rather than being dependent upon the interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"?


Eeh, what has this to do with preventing ordinary individuals direct access to sources of codes of morality so that they may scrutinize these by themselves, rather than being dependent upon the interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"?

Well 2 out of 3 of the languages I mentioned are practically extinct but learning them has not caused anbody's brain to wither. At least not that I've noticed. Don't you think giving people access to the original unadulterated text of religious documents is actually better than giving them a carefully constructed, abridged, translated version such as the bible for instance? which is merely "an interpretation charitably given them by their "superiors"