Dog Cloning

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  • #26
russ_watters
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quetzalcoatl9 said:
im assuming that by this you are speaking in terms of biology, and not referring to each person being "special" or having a "soul" or anything like that.

so we are then speaking of two organisms that are biologically identical, aside from any minor biological distinctiveness that may occur through interaction with the environment. e.g. one twin may develop dark spots on their skin differently from the other due to oxidation damage and so forth - this is ok, and according to my definition does not make them less identical biologically.

of course it is obvious that they will have different environmental experiences, and so they will not have the same memories or perspectives. but again, this does not detract from the fact that they are biologically identical.

so: i would consider twins to be two instances of the same person that coexist in the same spatial and time domain.

conceptually: wipe out my memories and then send me back in time to interact with myself - and you would have twins. no less the same person!
There really is something big about the biology you're missing here: the human brain doesn't stop its development at birth(or conception, for that matter), so depending on their upbringing, two twins can have very different brain structure - that's why they can end up with very different personalities.
 
  • #27
Moonbear
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quetzalcoatl9 said:
im assuming that by this you are speaking in terms of biology, and not referring to each person being "special" or having a "soul" or anything like that.

so we are then speaking of two organisms that are biologically identical, aside from any minor biological distinctiveness that may occur through interaction with the environment. e.g. one twin may develop dark spots on their skin differently from the other due to oxidation damage and so forth - this is ok, and according to my definition does not make them less identical biologically.

of course it is obvious that they will have different environmental experiences, and so they will not have the same memories or perspectives. but again, this does not detract from the fact that they are biologically identical.

so: i would consider twins to be two instances of the same person that coexist in the same spatial and time domain.

conceptually: wipe out my memories and then send me back in time to interact with myself - and you would have twins. no less the same person!
This is a very strange way of looking at things. Just because two organisms are genetically identical, they are not a single organism. Every bacterium in a colony is genetically identical, but each is an individual bacterium; every ash tree in an ash grove is genetically identical, but you wouldn't say it was just one tree; for that matter, even inanimate objects can be identical, such as the set of four chairs at the kitchen table that were mass produced to be identical, yet you still call them 4 chairs, not just one. A genetically identical dog is NOT the same dog. Actually, the best example of this is the cats that were cloned. Take a look at photos available of them; they don't even have the same coat color. This is what makes clones so interesting as a research tool, the ability to identify what traits are controlled purely by genetics and which are influenced by the developmental environment.

But, hey, researchers would love it if you'd like to try convincing our lab animal services that cloned mice are all just one individual; it sure would save on per diem charges if we just counted them all as one mouse instead of 10s or 100s of mice.
 
  • #28
arildno
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quetzalcoatl9 said:
im assuming that by this you are speaking in terms of biology, and not referring to each person being "special" or having a "soul" or anything like that.

so we are then speaking of two organisms that are biologically identical, aside from any minor biological distinctiveness that may occur through interaction with the environment. e.g. one twin may develop dark spots on their skin differently from the other due to oxidation damage and so forth - this is ok, and according to my definition does not make them less identical biologically.

of course it is obvious that they will have different environmental experiences, and so they will not have the same memories or perspectives. but again, this does not detract from the fact that they are biologically identical.

so: i would consider twins to be two instances of the same person that coexist in the same spatial and time domain.

conceptually: wipe out my memories and then send me back in time to interact with myself - and you would have twins. no less the same person!
What a load of mystical crap!
 
  • #29
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Evo said:
Why clone your dog? It will not have the memories or personality of your dog.
To eat it :)
 
  • #30
JamesU
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I will clone your dog for $1,000,000.

*calls pet store*
 
  • #31
arildno said:
What a load of mystical crap!
while you may consider it crap, how was any of what i said "mystical"?

im sorry that some of you have gotten upset over all of this - i thought that we were talking about science, where we can use logical deduction to try and speak rationally as opposed to things like "ask the twins what they think".
 
  • #32
arildno
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We have spoken rationally all the time; you haven't.
And yes, what you were writing IS mystical, since you operate with a fantasy individual who is instantiated in the real world, possibly in multiple instances.
This is fantasy and mysticism.
 
  • #33
arildno said:
We have spoken rationally all the time; you haven't.
And yes, what you were writing IS mystical, since you operate with a fantasy individual who is instantiated in the real world, possibly in multiple instances.
This is fantasy and mysticism.
no this is logic - it is called a thought experiment. since we are talking about two organisms which are genetically identical, this is appropriate; my point being that if I were transported back in time to interact with myself, what would result would be indistinguishable (possibly) from twins as we know it.

my claim is that twins represent two instances of the same person, occupying the same spatial and time domains (but not both at the same time of course - if that were the case then it would be just a single "person"). since each one takes a different timeline, and is subject to different events, they will have different memories and so forth. following my line of reasoning, if you took one twin and it were subject to exactly the same events - exactly - they would be a complete copy of the other twin. of course, havingn the same exact events occur is an impossibility, but the reasoning stands nonetheless.

what you perhaps find so bothersome about me is that this raises the same types of issues that are faced over cloning.

im not sure how you consider this irrational..i find it more empirical than talking ambiguously of "personality", something that cannot be quantified.

i was actually more interested in talking about embryonic cloning methods via immunosurgery and possibly Cre-Lox methods, but everyone else seems to want to have pedantic one-liners about "personality" and such and so here we are...
 
  • #34
arildno
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Empirical???
Do you even know the meaning of that word?

Do not mistake silly fantasies about memory-cleaning and time travel for an exercise in logic and rationality.


once you've grown out of these adolescent ramblings, you're welcome to post something of substance.
 
  • #35
arildno said:
Empirical???
Do you even know the meaning of that word?

Do not mistake silly fantasies about memory-cleaning and time travel for an exercise in logic and rationality.


once you've grown out of these adolescent ramblings, you're welcome to post something of substance.
yessir professor

:rolleyes:
 
  • #36
Main Entry: mys·ti·cal
Pronunciation: 'mis-ti-k&l
Function: adjective
1 a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence <the mystical food of the sacrament> b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective communion with God or ultimate reality <the mystical experience of the Inner Light>

ok, then here is one that will really make you mad arnildo:

if pre-biotic evolution is correct, then it stands to reason that all life on earth is nothing more than the cycling of a single cell line.

is this mystical?
 
  • #37
arildno
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quetzalcoatl9 said:
my claim is that twins represent two instances of the same person, occupying the same spatial and time domains (but not both at the same time of course - if that were the case then it would be just a single "person"). since each one takes a different timeline, and is subject to different events, they will have different memories and so forth. following my line of reasoning, if you took one twin and it were subject to exactly the same events - exactly - they would be a complete copy of the other twin. of course, havingn the same exact events occur is an impossibility, but the reasoning stands nonetheless.
This seems to contain your so-called "argument".
Note that in as much as the two persons should have EXACTLY the same experiences, then they must be the same person.

Thus, your argument is as follows:
Suppose that two persons are the same individual.
Then it follows that the two persons are the same individual.

It is certainly a correct reasoning, I'll give you that much..
 
  • #38
Tom Mattson
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quetzalcoatl9 said:
no this is logic - it is called a thought experiment.
While I agree that this is not mysticism, it is undoubtedly a thought experiment of the sort used to explore the implications of physicalism/materialism. In other words, it is philosophy, not science. I don't think that's bad per se (I appreciate philosophy very much), but at at same time I can see why it's not well-received in the Biology forum. I think that the best solution would be for you to explore your thought experiment in the Metaphysics and Epistemology forum, no?
 
  • #39
arildno said:
This seems to contain your so-called "argument".
Note that in as much as the two persons should have EXACTLY the same experiences, then they must be the same person.

Thus, your argument is as follows:
Suppose that two persons are the same individual.
Then it follows that the two persons are the same individual.

It is certainly a correct reasoning, I'll give you that much..
not exactly..the problem is in the definition of "person".

we take as postulates:

1) a person is nothing more than a collection of atoms in a particular configuration
2) the configuration of these atoms will be subject to change over time according to the laws of physics - and that this is allowed in the definition. for example, the atoms that make up a human's body are turned over several times within the average lifespan - yet the configuration is roughly the same, or at least follows a typical progression with age. at no point would we consider an organism at age 10 to no longer be the same organism at age 70.

so here is what i am getting at: twins (or a clone) represent the same starting configuration of atoms, but due to each seperate twin being subject to different events, the configurations amongst the two will diverge - but will not diverge moreso than what we would consider the "same person".

changes in their brain configuration, ala "personality", will be different but not more different than what may be considered with any other single person.

therefore, as individualistic and different as two twins may be, it is logical fallacy (if one accepts the definition of a "person" as strictly being atomic) to claim that they are not the same person - they are the same person whose current conditions have diverged from the same initial condition.

to not accept this would lead to the following: because the atoms that make up my body at age 32 are not the same as they were at age 10, then i am no longer the same person. to negate my argument would be to imply the previous sentence.
 
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  • #40
arildno
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You are no longer the same person at 32 as you were when you were 10.
Whoever told you that you were? :confused:
 
  • #41
Tom Mattson said:
While I agree that this is not mysticism, it is undoubtedly a thought experiment of the sort used to explore the implications of physicalism/materialism. In other words, it is philosophy, not science. I don't think that's bad per se (I appreciate philosophy very much), but at at same time I can see why it's not well-received in the Biology forum. I think that the best solution would be for you to explore your thought experiment in the Metaphysics and Epistemology forum, no?
tom, i agree with you wholeheartedly.

however, the claim was made that this would not be the same dog. my claim is that it is, albeit strictly in a logical sense. neither of these claims is within the realm strictly of biology, but at the same time are appropriate since the topic here is cloning - and i do not see how issues of cloning could be discussed without philosophy or ethics falling in.
 
  • #42
arildno said:
You are no longer the same person at 32 as you were when you were 10.
Whoever told you that you were? :confused:
how can that make sense? do i get issued a new id card, a new name? more specifically, what has changed?
 
  • #43
arildno
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quetzalcoatl9 said:
how can that make sense? do i get issued a new id card, a new name? more specifically, what has changed?
You've had sex, for example, and experienced love.
These experiences, and countless others, make you a lot different than the 10-year old you once were.
 

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