Should You Pursue a Physics PhD? Advice from Brian Schwartz

[Dr Transport]

I consider academia to be very much "the real world", and a was referring to what they have said about job opportunities in academia.

After tenure, I would not agree with you. The real word is where you have to produce to keep your job and where your company can relieve you of your duties and walk you out the door, the chances of that happening in academia is slim to slimmer unless you commit a felony.

 

[Astronuc]

A slightly different perspective.

The CEO/founder of the company where I work has a PhD. The president has a PhD. Both are leaders in analytical methods and constitutive modeling.

I know quite a few PhD's who started their own companies, and I work and interact with many PhD's who are managers in industry, and moreso, many who work for NASA or a DOE lab.

Having a PhD is not necessarily a constraint.

 

[Dr Transport]

A slightly different perspective.

The CEO/founder of the company where I work has a PhD. The president has a PhD. Both are leaders in analytical methods and constitutive modeling.

I know quite a few PhD's who started their own companies, and I work and interact with many PhD's who are managers in industry, and moreso, many who work for NASA or a DOE lab.

Having a PhD is not necessarily a constraint.

I agree totally, the point I am trying to make is that if you think that by getting a PhD you automatically get a better job you are wrong. It is difficult to get a job with a PhD at this time. As I have said before, to the best of my knowledge my company has not hired a PhD in the past couple of years. My advisor was forced out of academia because he was an untenured research professor who lost his funding stream. He has been unemployed for the past 5 years. Who wouldn't hire him, he has over 35 years experience at multiple levels of mangement and research from research professor to lab manager to president of his own company (which he sold for a nice chunk of change).

 

[gravenewworld]

If you have a science degree, go into law. Law firms kill for people with a science background and that are trained in patent law. Hell, I know my company pays our patent lawyers $500/hr. The best part is the fact that you hardly ever have to go to court and you aren't one of those slimy ambulance chasing type lawyers.

 

[Locrian]

It's my conclusion that this paper, despite being over a decade old and using data 15 years old, is very much a good description of the way things are now. I consider the AIP data deeply flawed - I dispute both its methods and the rosy interpretation its given. I've not seen any data to suggest the disturbing growth in time spent as postdocs has dropped - on the contrary.

I used to have a nice blog post with lots of links to references in it (including this one), but it's gone. It doesn't matter, it's all on the web for anyone wanting to find it. For two semesters I've sat in my office listening to people about to graduate with PhD's gradually lower their standards until they're talking about what community college they hope to teach at. It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. I'm really beyond arguing over whether I'm right - I can just walk around a few departments and strike up some uncomfortable but key conversations to affirm my position any day I wish.

I believe there are jobs out there for physicists with specific backgrounds and very exceptional skills - I think at least one optimistic person (Zz) in this thread fits that bill. However, unless you, too, fit that description, you'll very likely get screwed bloody in the long run by getting a PhD in physics. Go ahead, get your PhD in non-comm geometry, experimental HEP or some obscure area of astrophysics. You might win the lottery and end up with a good job. I hope you enjoy gambling.

In case you are wondering, I have not gotten burned by getting a PhD - yet. I got burned by getting my bachelors and decided I could beat the system when I came back for more. So far I believe it's working. However I'm less convinced every day the prize is worth threading this series of needles.

For those of you considering a PhD, the information is out there. Go look. And don't say you weren't warned.

 

[Locrian]

If you have a science degree, go into law. Law firms kill for people with a science background and that are trained in patent law.

In the end of the 90's there was a large number of engineers and scientists who did just this, only to find the market unable to absorb them. If you read IP forums (and I have been) you'll find mixed reviews about the job situation. I'm not saying you can't get one, I believe you can, that the job prospects are at least as good as those for PhD's in the sciences, and that it can be a rewarding career. . .

. . . But it will behoove you to stop being optimistic and start being crafty sooner rather than later. Your company pays patent lawyers $500/hr. The lawyer doesn't get $500 an hour, and the pay for a patent agent is a fraction of what a patent lawyer gets.

 

[ZapperZ]

One of the things that I have always tried to emphasize during one's academic years is to get as wide of an experience and skills as possible. I've mentioned this in my So You Want To Be A Physicist essays, and in various threads in this forum. I have also mentioned the "employability" factor and have asked the student to start considering such a thing when choosing what they want to do. I have seen, during the early/mid 90's where, when there are reports of PhD's in physics driving cabs to make a living, there are still students clamoring to do string theory and various other esoteric theoretical subject area! Then they complain that they cannot get employed! At the same time, I have personally seen people who have yet to defend their thesis getting employment offers from Hewlet-Packard and various medical facilities.

What you choose to specialize in dictates very much on your employability. One can argue about statistics being accurate or not, or job market sucks or not, but that is the one thing that cannot be denied. The skill you posses by the time you graduate will determine how wide of a job market that is available to you. So if you have no or limited skills, then no matter what degree you graduated in, it would be foolish to expect that you have a large degree of employability.

Basic sciences have been battered in terms of funding in the US since the 90's. It appears that there is now an effort in congress, and in the president's budget, to double the research funding for DOE and NSF in 10 years, the same way that was done to the NIH during the last decade. If this occurs (and there's every indication that this funding increase, even if not doubled, might come through), then there WILL be a significant job opportunities in the physical sciences. However, that may still not change much if you still insist on doing string theory.

Zz.

 

[gravenewworld]

or you can still get your PhD and become a high school teacher. With enough experience and if you live in the right area, some high school teacher make over 70 grand a year. and you still get the summers off, never have publishing requirements, and don't have to fight for grants. the only draw back is that you probably won't have the facilities to do research, but if you can live without that, but want to go into academia, become a high school teacher because they are definitely needed.


honestly ask yourself, "Do I really need a PhD?" In industry you get to do PhD level science everyday with a BS or MS without ever needing a PhD. Sure you might not come up with the experiment (the PhD will), but you are the one who gets to do it. No one is saying don't study science, you can do that on your own time, but do you really need a few letters after your last name to prove to everyone that you are special? A few guys where I work that just have a BS are insanely incredible at chemistry, all just from working in industry long enough. They are by far and away much much better than some of the PhD candidates from places like UPenn, UC, Harvard, Michigan, etc. we interviewed for a post doc position that we were offering before.

 

[ZapperZ]

or you can still get your PhD and become a high school teacher. With enough experience and if you live in the right area, some high school teacher make over 70 grand a year. and you still get the summers off, never have publishing requirements, and don't have to fight for grants. the only draw back is that you probably won't have the facilities to do research, but if you can live without that, but want to go into academia, become a high school teacher because they are definitely needed.

honestly ask yourself, "Do I really need a PhD?" In industry you get to do PhD level science everyday with a BS or MS without ever needing a PhD. Sure you might not come up with the experiment (the PhD will), but you are the one who gets to do it. No one is saying don't study science, you can do that on your own time, but do you really need a few letters after your last name to prove to everyone that you are special? A few guys where I work that just have a BS are insanely incredible at chemistry, all just from working in industry long enough. They are by far and away much much better than some of the PhD candidates from places like UPenn, UC, Harvard, Michigan, etc. we interviewed for a post doc position that we were offering before.

But you also can't assume that people who pursue a Ph.D simply want to have those extra letters after their name. That's presumptuous and insulting to those who do. In physics, if you do it simply for the "prestige" and standing, you'll never get it, because it is just way to difficult and demanding to do it for the wrong reason.

And if we want to do anecdotal evidence of what someone with a Ph.D can or cannot do versus someone with just a B.Sc can and cannot do, I can come up with boatload of examples as well. That proves nothing. The fact is that

(i) there are jobs that require a Ph.D in physics
(ii) there are jobs that do not require a Ph.D in physics
(iii) there are jobs that don't give a damn what you have, but rather that you can DO

As some point, we simply can no longer make blanket statements about such things. Just look at the issue of employability and job opportunities for experimentalists versus theorists alone. I can easily say that one should consider those two separately. If you are a theorist and hoping to get good academic or research position, then you'd better have gone to a very prestigious institution, and have a strong "pedigree", because chances are, with your limited employability, the schools that are looking to hire will pay more attention to you if you came from a well-known mentor. If you came from a not-so-well-known institution, then there is a very good chance that you won't find your ideal job. The competition is just too great, and your employability is just too limited! That is the nature of the job market!

I have been categorized as an optimist AND a pessimist many times over. And guess what? That is quite accurate. I'm an optimist when it comes to certain area of physics and graduates with certain skills. I'm a pessimist when I see people stubbornly pursue a certain line of study with very rigid, single-minded goal without any consideration whatsoever on what they can do after they graduate. In my years in physics, I've seen both extremes, and everything in between. To this very day, I've seen people languishing in one post-doc position after another, unable to find a permanent job, while another had barely finished the first year of a postdoctoral appointment before being snapped up by a terrific position. Considering the huge variety of expertise that is available in physics, I don't see how anyone can make any kind of a blanket statement about the employment status in physics.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

.. and just in time to address this issue further, the April edition of Physics Today has this article:

http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_60/iss_4/28_1.shtml"

Zz.

 

[PhilosophyofPhysics]

This thread is so depressing. The reason I'd want a Ph.D has to do with gaining more knowledge of Physics. :( But this all costs time and money. Lately, I've been thinking that I should attempt to get a job rather than go to grad school.

 

[Quaoar]

If you're going to get a PhD in ANYTHING, you got to do it because you love the subject. If you don't love the subject, its going to show in your work and you might suffer as a result.

Also, whenever Zapper uses Zz to end his post, it looks like he's snoring... :P

 

[ZapperZ]

Also, whenever Zapper uses Zz to end his post, it looks like he's snoring... :P

But I am!

Zzzzzzz...

 

[L62]

They still want between 3 and 5 years post-doc'ing and a track record of funding...



What do they know, they are not part of the real world and honestly what do you think they are going to tell you, "the job market sucks for PhD's, but stay in school and live like a slave"...Their job is to produce PhD's and Masters degrees, they are not going to drive you away with reality.

This is very true. Professors depend on grad students to do their research for them, and to churn out publications and data for new grant proposals to build their empires with. Of course they are going to encourage you, they don't want you to quit halfway because then who will do the work for them? Also, professors get evaluated based in part on how many Phd students they produce, and on how many of their students go on to become professors themselves.

Also, see www.phds.org for more articles on career issues for phds and more updated statistics on the job market

 

[Dr Transport]

My advisor had three goals for me

1. Get my PhD.
2. Enjoy what I was doing.

Most importantly
3. Have the skills to be employable when I was done.

Having worked in industry himself, he knew that #3 was the most important. He knew that the other majors in my department were not getting jobs but were just working from research contract to research contract without any chance at full-time permanent employment. Numbers 1 & 2 were worthless if you could not find a job and support yourself.

 

[gravenewworld]

But you also can't assume that people who pursue a Ph.D simply want to have those extra letters after their name. That's presumptuous and insulting to those who do. In physics, if you do it simply for the "prestige" and standing, you'll never get it, because it is just way to difficult and demanding to do it for the wrong reason.

And if we want to do anecdotal evidence of what someone with a Ph.D can or cannot do versus someone with just a B.Sc can and cannot do, I can come up with boatload of examples as well. That proves nothing. The fact is that

(i) there are jobs that require a Ph.D in physics
(ii) there are jobs that do not require a Ph.D in physics
(iii) there are jobs that don't give a damn what you have, but rather that you can DO

If I offend anyone by what I say, then I apologize. I am just usually very cynical, it is just the way that I am. I didn't mean to intentionally offend anyone though. Believe me, I have the utmost respect for my professors at my university.

I don't know what it is like in industry for physics because I am a chemist. However, working as a chemist, I have gained some insight into what it is like in industry for the sciences in general. The chemical industry is HUGE when you compare it to what industry is like for a physicist or biologist. It is extremely tough out there for Phds for all the reasons already mentioned. You have to seriously ask yourself why you want one. If you just want to study advanced topics in your desired field, I'd say that is the wrong reason why you should get a PhD. I have a BS in math, but I don't need to go to grad school to study advanced math. I read graduate level math texts every once in a while and learn all the time. You don't need school in order to learn on your own. If I ever get hung up on an idea that I don't understand I simply email my undergrad math professors with my question and they always help me out. They are always extremely glad to see that after I have graduated that I still have an interest in math and are happy to answer questions.

Yes there are jobs that require a PhD. But just remember, for that position there are 30 other applicants for that spot, not only are you competing against people that have graduated from places like MIT, Harvard, etc. you are competing against a TON of individuals who have gotten their PhDs from over seas. 99% of people who go to grad school aren't fortunate enough to go to the top 5 schools in the country and will have extreme difficulty getting a job with their PhD.

While someone is in grad school for 5 years, then doing a post doc for another 4 years I have already worked for almost 10 years and have made $500,000+, bought a decent house and car, started a family, and my retirement account has compounded exponentially for all that time, while someone who has decided that they want a PhD only starts making real money by the time they are 30-35. And by then with 10+ years experience I could probably make about 60-65 grand, while a fresh PhD would start at around 60-70 grand. All that time too I have the opportunity to earn a Masters degree while my company pays for everything which could even increase my salary further.
Also remember, that if you have any student loans, the interest piles on the entire time while you are pursuing a PhD which can add on thousands of dollars that will be due on a student loan.

When I was an undergrad I was absolutely dead set on getting a PhD. That was until I worked at an internship my Jr. year. That is when the real world actually hit me over the head. I saw how extremely tough it is in industry to get a job with a PhD and the enormous sacrifice it involves. No thanks, that is not my cup of tea. I'd rather let someone else suffer for their PhD and do the work for them (which is essentially what I do), that way I can get paid more, learn PhD level chemistry everyday on my own, and live with much less stress.

I would highly recommend that everyone who is an undergrad now, but wants to go to grad school for a PhD live out in the real world first for 2 or 3 years. Grad school will always be there for you, you can always go back if you want. See what it is like to pay rent/mortgage, student loans, car payments, utilities, groceries, etc. After that, if you think you are comfortable living on 20-25 grand per year, then by all means go to grad school.

 

[Dr Transport]

Well said gravenworld...

 

[ZapperZ]

If I offend anyone by what I say, then I apologize. I am just usually very cynical, it is just the way that I am. I didn't mean to intentionally offend anyone though. Believe me, I have the utmost respect for my professors at my university.

I don't know what it is like in industry for physics because I am a chemist. However, working as a chemist, I have gained some insight into what it is like in industry for the sciences in general. The chemical industry is HUGE when you compare it to what industry is like for a physicist or biologist. It is extremely tough out there for Phds for all the reasons already mentioned. You have to seriously ask yourself why you want one. If you just want to study advanced topics in your desired field, I'd say that is the wrong reason why you should get a PhD. I have a BS in math, but I don't need to go to grad school to study advanced math. I read graduate level math texts every once in a while and learn all the time. You don't need school in order to learn on your own. If I ever get hung up on an idea that I don't understand I simply email my undergrad math professors with my question and they always help me out. They are always extremely glad to see that after I have graduated that I still have an interest in math and are happy to answer questions.

Yes there are jobs that require a PhD. But just remember, for that position there are 30 other applicants for that spot, not only are you competing against people that have graduated from places like MIT, Harvard, etc. you are competing against a TON of individuals who have gotten their PhDs from over seas. 99% of people who go to grad school aren't fortunate enough to go to the top 5 schools in the country and will have extreme difficulty getting a job with their PhD.

While someone is in grad school for 5 years, then doing a post doc for another 4 years I have already worked for almost 10 years and have made $500,000+, bought a decent house and car, started a family, and my retirement account has compounded exponentially for all that time, while someone who has decided that they want a PhD only starts making real money by the time they are 30-35. And by then with 10+ years experience I could probably make about 60-65 grand, while a fresh PhD would start at around 60-70 grand. All that time too I have the opportunity to earn a Masters degree while my company pays for everything which could even increase my salary further.
Also remember, that if you have any student loans, the interest piles on the entire time while you are pursuing a PhD which can add on thousands of dollars that will be due on a student loan.

When I was an undergrad I was absolutely dead set on getting a PhD. That was until I worked at an internship my Jr. year. That is when the real world actually hit me over the head. I saw how extremely tough it is in industry to get a job with a PhD and the enormous sacrifice it involves. No thanks, that is not my cup of tea. I'd rather let someone else suffer for their PhD and do the work for them (which is essentially what I do), that way I can get paid more, learn PhD level chemistry everyday on my own, and live with much less stress.

I would highly recommend that everyone who is an undergrad now, but wants to go to grad school for a PhD live out in the real world first for 2 or 3 years. Grad school will always be there for you, you can always go back if you want. See what it is like to pay rent/mortgage, student loans, car payments, utilities, groceries, etc. After that, if you think you are comfortable living on 20-25 grand per year, then by all means go to grad school.

In all of the stuff I've written about being a physicist, I never once said that it was easy. In fact, I tried to punch through many myths when I started my series of essays on this. I also hope that by describing what I and most people had to go through, people who intend to go into this field clearly understand and are aware of what they are faced with.

While you may have been able to study certain things on your own, I will put it to you that there are many other things you can't. You can't "study" on your own if you want to be an experimentalist. You can't simply read about ultra-high vacuum systems, how to run an SEM and analyze its result, performing an NMR experiment, etc.. etc. You do not get these by learning "on your own". These are the skills that I've referred to several times that become extremely valuable upon graduation.

You are also forgetting one important thing when you talk about the cost of going to grad school. Many physics graduate students receive assistance, be it in from of a teaching assistance, or research assistance. In schools such as Stanford, etc., you automatically get some form of assistance when you get accepted into the graduate program. I went through 6 years of graduate school without paying a single cent in tuition and fees, and I'm not the exception.

I feel that I'm somehow in the middle of things here. I see one side where bright-eyed students are just blindly going into this field, going into esoteric programs without a single regard to their employability upon graduation and the reality of the job market. Then I have people like you who seem to want everyone to just abandon all hope and get a job as quickly as one can, giving the impression that there is zero worth in pursuing higher knowledge in a field of study regardless of what that field is. The problem here is that there is very little emphasis on the middle ground, where you CAN have your cake and eat it too. You can study physics, spend years doing it, and still get a decent job and make a decent living if you make the appropriate choices. Many have done that, and if the AIP statistics is any indication, many have said that they would not change their decisions to get into this field.

If all we care about is making money, then forget about physics. One should not even think about majoring in science. Why even bother when one can easily make boatload of money in plenty of other fields. I'm waiting for someone here to come up with an argument that one doesn't even need to go to school, much less get a college degree, since plenty of things can be learn on your own.

Zz.

 

[gravenewworld]

In all of the stuff I've written about being a physicist, I never once said that it was easy. In fact, I tried to punch through many myths when I started my series of essays on this. I also hope that by describing what I and most people had to go through, people who intend to go into this field clearly understand and are aware of what they are faced with.

While you may have been able to study certain things on your own, I will put it to you that there are many other things you can't. You can't "study" on your own if you want to be an experimentalist. You can't simply read about ultra-high vacuum systems, how to run an SEM and analyze its result, performing an NMR experiment, etc.. etc. You do not get these by learning "on your own". These are the skills that I've referred to several times that become extremely valuable upon graduation.

NMR? That is DEFINITELY something I have learned on my own, just by being forced to use it to analyze my samples. I have become even pretty damn good at it too. My boss even gave me a book that I have to read on the theory behind NMR in order to fufill my yearly goals. I feel that, by definition, if you are working in industry you are pretty much an experimentalist. None of our Analytical Chemists have a PhD but are in charge of millions and millions of dollars of high tech equipment. Before I started working, I had no clue how things like triple quad mass specs, LC/MS, or xray crystallography worked, but after being forced to use them and with some guidance, I have become proficient at using many many forms of instrumentation I never even saw when I was an undergrad. Sure, I am not a specialist with those types of equipment, but I have taught myself a decent amount about how those types of instruments work. Industry has way more money to spend on equipment than most universities. The employees that get to use them constantly get to work with cutting edge technology and a lot of those employees don't have a PhD.

I think you are missing what I am trying to say. I am not saying getting a PhD is worthless, I am saying just get it for the right reasons. Get one because you enjoy what you do and you want to make the world a better place. I applaud people that do it for those reasons. Don't get a PhD simply because you think you will get paid more in industry or want to study advanced topics. You have to be 100% CERTAIN that you are willing to give up a huge chunk of your life and income to get a PhD. For me, I don't need a PhD to make the world a better place, I simply volunteer my time tutoring disadvantage middle and high school students and volunteer at the local hospital.

People say that money doesn't matter but that is BS. One of the leading causes of divorces is because of money problems. I don't know anyone who doesn't get a gray hair or two when they have to worry about how they will pay for food to feed their children or how they will pay their next rent payment. I know that grad school in the sciences is completely free and that they even give you a stipend every year to go to grad school. But that stipend is usually only around 20 grand per year. When I think of cost, I think like an economist. Everyone should ask themselves what their opportunity cost of going to grad school is. Is 10 years working on a Phd and post docs worth $500+ grand I could of gotten by working? To me, definitely not.

 

[ZapperZ]

NMR? That is DEFINITELY something I have learned on my own, just by being forced to use it to analyze my samples. I have become even pretty damn good at it too. My boss even gave me a book that I have to read on the theory behind NMR in order to fufill my yearly goals. I feel that, by definition, if you are working in industry you are pretty much an experimentalist. None of our Analytical Chemists have a PhD but are in charge of millions and millions of dollars of high tech equipment. Before I started working, I had no clue how things like triple quad mass specs, LC/MS, or xray crystallography worked, but after being forced to use them and with some guidance, I have become proficient at using many many forms of instrumentation I never even saw when I was an undergrad. Sure, I am not a specialist with those types of equipment, but I have taught myself a decent amount about how those types of instruments work. Industry has way more money to spend on equipment than most universities. The employees that get to use them constantly get to work with cutting edge technology and a lot of those employees don't have a PhD.

No, I meant simply by reading a book and not doing anything else. It is my point that you have to actual DO things to be able to be an experimentalist. You simply cannot learn how to ride a bike simply by READING about it. You have to get on it and DO it. Someone who has no access to any of these technique simply cannot "learn on his/her own" by reading about it.

BTW, many people "use" cutting edge technology even without going to school. Just look at an iPod. However, it takes many people with the advanced knowledge to be able to understand the physics and engineering aspect of it to be able to come up with such devices. What has trickled down and becomes common place in industries and in various applications often originated out of basic research done by students pursuing their doctorates, or by postdocs and research scientists. Using cutting edge technologies do not require advanced knowledge. Working in cutting edge knowledge does!

I think you are missing what I am trying to say. I am not saying getting a PhD is worthless, I am saying just get it for the right reasons. Get one because you enjoy what you do and you want to make the world a better place. I applaud people that do it for those reasons. Don't get a PhD simply because you think you will get paid more in industry or want to study advanced topics. You have to be 100% CERTAIN that you are willing to give up a huge chunk of your life and income to get a PhD. For me, I don't need a PhD to make the world a better place, I simply volunteer my time tutoring disadvantage middle and high school students and volunteer at the local hospital.

But isn't that was mentioned in here already? At no point in time did anyone ever mentioned about getting more pay in anything. I brought up employment in industries as a viable alternative for MANY people in physics who have the right specialty and skills. I never mentioned once that they can make "more" money. If this "more money" is the criteria, then we should not even be majoring in physics in the first place!

And I have already mentioned about not doing this for the wrong reason. In fact, physics is so difficult and so challenging, people who do it for the wrong reason WILL drop out, because there is just no incentive to continue that long road!

People say that money doesn't matter but that is BS. One of the leading causes of divorces is because of money problems. I don't know anyone who doesn't get a gray hair or two when they have to worry about how they will pay for food to feed their children or how they will pay their next rent payment. I know that grad school in the sciences is completely free and that they even give you a stipend every year to go to grad school. But that stipend is usually only around 20 grand per year. When I think of cost, I think like an economist. Everyone should ask themselves what their opportunity cost of going to grad school is. Is 10 years working on a Phd and post docs worth $500+ grand I could of gotten by working? To me, definitely not.

... and that too is not something people have said here. To say that money is not a factor at all is being unrealistic. However, you also cannot apply your priorities and expect that to be a valid rule to be applied to everyone. If we're just talking about personal preferences without regard to the general situation, then let's all do our anecdotal stories one at a time. You tell everyone to stop going to grad school and get a job, while I tell everyone to major in experimental condensed matter physics, learn about thin-film fabrication, ultra-high vacuum, and SEM, and then get a job at Intel, Applied Materials, Motorola, Xerox, or postdocs at various outstanding universities or US Nat'l labs. Then we've completed our mission at doing a complete disservice to the students considering their future by making our narrow vision as the general pattern. Is that what you are trying to accomplish?

Zz.

 

[JasonRox]

You simply cannot learn how to ride a bike simply by READING about it. You have to get on it and DO it.

Zz.

Man, that is gold. Made me laugh. Great analogy.

My next signature and MSN quote!

 

[Ki Man]

People say that money doesn't matter but that is BS. One of the leading causes of divorces is because of money problems. I don't know anyone who doesn't get a gray hair or two when they have to worry about how they will pay for food to feed their children or how they will pay their next rent payment. I know that grad school in the sciences is completely free and that they even give you a stipend every year to go to grad school. But that stipend is usually only around 20 grand per year. When I think of cost, I think like an economist. Everyone should ask themselves what their opportunity cost of going to grad school is. Is 10 years working on a Phd and post docs worth $500+ grand I could of gotten by working? To me, definitely not.

...which is why I think persuit of happiness should have been about an unemployed physics PhD.

 

[HungryChemist]

I know all this. I wish I am capable of dreaming about something other than becoming a Physicist. I met a post-doc (two timer) who've earned his Ph.D. from Columbia and did his post doc in place like Livermore National Lab and published bunch of papers even on the cover of respectable journal. He was my summer project mentor. After some time, we got to know each other to the point we can discuss things that are not easy to be discussed b/t professor and student relationship. He told me flat out not to do science in Ph.d. for all the reasons people on this post sure know about.
After deep thought, I decided to quit pursuing my dream of becoming Physicist. I then decided to apply for medical school. MCAT looked easy(especially Physical Science part) and my GPA was well above safe line. I even registered for Organic Chemistry class. I met with premed adviser set up a plan from then to all the way to the medical school. It was then I learned people like Radiologist make $300,000 an year. But then I found out, every night, I can't go to sleep. I am studying Physics more than before. Reading Feynman got three times better than before too. And sitting on the organic chemistry was the worst torture of my life after Intercultural Communication class. It didn't take me too long to realize that not doing Physics makes my life miserable. People keep talking about how difficult it's going to get after Ph.D. and so on. But I guess that's the price I have to pay for the fun ride. I know I might not be rich, will probably have to find a wife who's kind and who can stand being poor under the name of family and love(or already really rich). But I know my next 10 years(graduate+post doc) will be most fun part of my life. Damn it! That's right. It will be fun! I will no longer require to take GE classes. I will be studying and researching on the topics I want. I will not be under pressure of writing grant proposal. I will meet bunch of guys(and girls) who share same dream and interest with me. I will have time to think about the problems which I didn't get to understand during my undergraduate years. I guess I want my prime 10 years now than later. At least, I don't hear Ph.D. Physicist dying of hunger(I hope I am right on this).

 

[leright]

I know all this. I wish I am capable of dreaming about something other than becoming a Physicist. I met a post-doc (two timer) who've earned his Ph.D. from Columbia and did his post doc in place like Livermore National Lab and published bunch of papers even on the cover of respectable journal. He was my summer project mentor. After some time, we got to know each other to the point we can discuss things that are not easy to be discussed b/t professor and student relationship. He told me flat out not to do science in Ph.d. for all the reasons people on this post sure know about.
After deep thought, I decided to quit pursuing my dream of becoming Physicist. I then decided to apply for medical school. MCAT looked easy(especially Physical Science part) and my GPA was well above safe line. I even registered for Organic Chemistry class. I met with premed adviser set up a plan from then to all the way to the medical school. It was then I learned people like Radiologist make $300,000 an year. But then I found out, every night, I can't go to sleep. I am studying Physics more than before. Reading Feynman got three times better than before too. And sitting on the organic chemistry was the worst torture of my life after Intercultural Communication class. It didn't take me too long to realize that not doing Physics makes my life miserable. People keep talking about how difficult it's going to get after Ph.D. and so on. But I guess that's the price I have to pay for the fun ride. I know I might not be rich, will probably have to find a wife who's kind and who can stand being poor under the name of family and love(or already really rich). But I know my next 10 years(graduate+post doc) will be most fun part of my life. Damn it! That's right. It will be fun! I will no longer require to take GE classes. I will be studying and researching on the topics I want. I will not be under pressure of writing grant proposal. I will meet bunch of guys(and girls) who share same dream and interest with me. I will have time to think about the problems which I didn't get to understand during my undergraduate years. I guess I want my prime 10 years now than later. At least, I don't hear Ph.D. Physicist dying of hunger(I hope I am right on this).

Amen. My thoughts exactly.

Any it's funny that your name is 'hungry chemist', yet you are a physics student.

 

[Cyrus]

I don't want a PhD. I want to spend 10 years or so working and slowly rereading every book from every course I have taken. That is going to take me at least 8 years to do.

A PhD is not a joke. I don't want to jump into one while solidifying what I should already know from my undergraduate courses. Similarly, I don't want to do a PhD on a stupid topic because of my weak foundation.

Third, getting a PhD after working only makes sense because then you have been out in the real world. You know how things really work, and what is a good area to do a PhD in. You are much more informed than you would be by applying straight from undergrad.

Theres no reason why one cannot get a graduate level understanding of any subject via self studying. Then when you decide to apply for graduate school you should be ready for business.

 

[J77]

In general: Do a PhD because you want to -- not for the career prospects or increased earning potential.

If you want the latter, go into a bank's fast stream program after your first degree.

I think it good to carry the flow through from your first degrees into PhD, get it done quickly and move onto research; does anyone read a PhD thesis except the student himself and his supervisors/reading committee? I always refer to my publications when people ask of my PhD work.

Finally, the "letters after the name" thing only lasts for a year -- especially if you're living somewhere like I do where they call everyone Mr/Mrs regardless of prefixes/suffixes.

 

[rahuldandekar]

Hungrychemist, that's so true. I'm currently studying my last year of undergrad physics, and I have the same problem: I can't enjoy anything else... Physics will make my life better, even if it'll not get me money. You put it so nicely. :)

 

[iacephysics]

wow, this thread really swayed my conviction of my physics career in the future. I am an undergrad right now. I have been pretty certain that I will go to graduate school and get a PH.D. I think I will still go to graduate school, maybe get a PH.D, but I am just not so sure any more. By the way, I am still a freshman. I was really fascinated by particle, high energy physics and astrophysics. I was thinking that becoming a particle physicist would be something I want to do. And just yesterday I was debating with myself if I should take a second major in astronomy.
But now after reading all these, I feel like slapped in the face by the reality. I am still 100% sure that physics is the field for me. Perhaps I just need to find something more practical than astrophysics. I will probably develop interest in quantum information or condensed matter physics. I have the option of doing another major or two minors. So instead of doing an astronomy major, a computer science major or tons of electrical engineering classes will make myself more employable?

 

[gravenewworld]

wow, this thread really swayed my conviction of my physics career in the future. I am an undergrad right now. I have been pretty certain that I will go to graduate school and get a PH.D. I think I will still go to graduate school, maybe get a PH.D, but I am just not so sure any more. By the way, I am still a freshman. I was really fascinated by particle, high energy physics and astrophysics. I was thinking that becoming a particle physicist would be something I want to do. And just yesterday I was debating with myself if I should take a second major in astronomy.
But now after reading all these, I feel like slapped in the face by the reality. I am still 100% sure that physics is the field for me. Perhaps I just need to find something more practical than astrophysics. I will probably develop interest in quantum information or condensed matter physics. I have the option of doing another major or two minors. So instead of doing an astronomy major, a computer science major or tons of electrical engineering classes will make myself more employable?

GET AN INTERNSHIP! See what it is like in the real world for a summer and get paid for it! Experience makes one extremely employable. Someone with a Masters and 10 years experience is much more employable than a fresh PhD with no working experience except summer job they worked all during college and grad school. I know members on the board who have Phds probably hate me or find me annoying, but I am just trying to speak the truth. I am not putting down anyone for their choice to pursue a PhD. I feel like a ton of people who go on to get their PhD, when they really know they shouldn't have mid way through, simply finish because they invested so much time into it and would hate to waste all those years of their life for nothing.

There is a middle ground- It is called a Master's degree. A master's is much more versatile than a BS and a PhD in the real world. BS maybe too unfamiliar with some things while a PhD is simply too specialized in a certain area. A master's has advanced knowledge of the subject without becoming narrowly focused on a certain topic that no one except academic institutions would be able to use.

Masters students can take the same grad classes as PhD students for the most part (and even take the same required classes that are required for PhD students too) so you still get almost the same classes as a PhD. The big difference is the fact that as a Masters student you won't have to write a huge dissertation. PhD students might be required to take several more classes than a Master student also.

The first people axed whenever a company downsizes are the PhDs so a company can save the most money. We had countless job inquiries at our company from PhDs who were victims of the massive layoffs from Johnson and Johnson and Pfizer. It is sad to see so many qualified and educated people struggling to make ends meet, while sports players, movie stars, and these jokers on American Idol get paid obscene amounts of money. But hey, life sucks.

 

[Mororvia]

So instead of doing an astronomy major, a computer science major or tons of electrical engineering classes will make myself more employable?

Having skills is always nice. As ZapperZ and others have said, you can learn skills and still major in physics... you just have to plan your electives accordingly. Programming, engineering (sometimes physics) courses WITH LABS!, chemistry labs, any sort of course where you can learn something that employers might find useful.

 

[ZapperZ]

GET AN INTERNSHIP! See what it is like in the real world for a summer and get paid for it! Experience makes one extremely employable. Someone with a Masters and 10 years experience is much more employable than a fresh PhD with no working experience except summer job they worked all during college and grad school. I know members on the board who have Phds probably hate me or find me annoying, but I am just trying to speak the truth. I am not putting down anyone for their choice to pursue a PhD. I feel like a ton of people who go on to get their PhD, when they really know they shouldn't have mid way through, simply finish because they invested so much time into it and would hate to waste all those years of their life for nothing.

No, you do not speak "THE truth", because there is no such thing as ONE and only ONE version of it. And that is my main objection from the very beginning of your tirade. You have somehow create this illusion that YOUR version is the only prevailing standard that should be applied to ALL cases. Forget about the fact that (i) you are dealing with a completely different field than physics and (ii) that you appear to be surrounded by losers who can't seem to be able to complete their education or hang on to their jobs.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. For every example you can come up, I can come up with the contrary. So now what has that left us with?

You seem to be forgetting or ignoring the fact that each year there are A LOT of people with Ph.D's that DO get decent jobs. That is not an anecdotal observation, but rather from the statistics, which you probably put less emphasis on as "evidence" when compared to your "anecdotal evidence".

iacephysics: The irony in all this is that, while particle physics/high energy physics have never been something I recommend people to do (I personally got disillusioned by it when I did my internship at Fermilab as an undergraduate), this is as good as a time as any to get into high energy physics due to the LHC about to go online and the ILC looming in the horizon. The group of universities and institutions that participate in this WILL be recruiting and hiring many physicists by the time you are done with your undergraduate studies and about to go into graduate school. My only advice is that for you not to close the doors on other areas while you continue to decide, and if you do decide to go into this field, that you should always keep in mind of how your skills can be expanded to be more employable just in case you can't make a living in that field.

To me, that IS the middle ground for people who have the passion for this subject matter, but do not forget the reality of having to make a living. Most of us who do get into this field is not to make $500,000 in 5 or 6 years, because if we care about that, we would not even consider any field of science. Rather, it is something we can't imagine not doing. But we also simply cannot ignore the ugly reality that we may not be able to do what we love for a living, or even if we can, it may not be what we all had in mind when we started. I certainly didn't think I end up where I am now, but I am awfully glad I stuck with it. I can say that I am making a decent living, but more importantly, I can say without a doubt that there's hardly a day that I do not look forward to coming into work. I know many people who can't say that.

Zz.

 

[gravenewworld]

No, you do not speak "THE truth", because there is no such thing as ONE and only ONE version of it. And that is my main objection from the very beginning of your tirade. You have somehow create this illusion that YOUR version is the only prevailing standard that should be applied to ALL cases. Forget about the fact that (i) you are dealing with a completely different field than physics and (ii) that you appear to be surrounded by losers who can't seem to be able to complete their education.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. For every example you can come up, I can come up with the contrary. So now what has that left us with?

You seem to be forgetting or ignoring the fact that each year there are A LOT of people with Ph.D's that DO get decent jobs. That is not an anecdotal observation, but rather from the statistics, which you probably put less emphasis on as "evidence" when compared to your "anecdotal evidence".

Please. What are these jobs that "A LOT OF PHDs" get? Temp jobs? Post doc positions. What is the average amount of time it takes a Phd to find a permanent STABLE job? The chemical industry is a giant when you compare the amount of businesses that would higher a chemist versus the amount of companies that would higher a physicist. If PhD chemists are having a hell of a time finding permanent positions, there is a pretty good chance that PhDs in other fields of science are as well. Let me ask you, where did you have the privilege of going to school for your doctorate? Did you go to a big name school like Harvard, MIT, Cal tech. etc? Well most people with PhDs didn't go the few big name schools out there, so YOUR standards (if you did go to one of those schools) of how easily one can find a job don't apply to most doctorate students since they won't have the same connections or recognition with their PhD from a smaller university. You want a reliable source for information? How about the US government's Bureau of Labor Statistics Job Outlook for Physicists?

Job Outlook [About this section] Back to Top Back to Top

Employment of physicists and astronomers is expected to grow more slowly than average for all occupations through 2014. Federal research expenditures are the major source of physics-related and astronomy-related research funds, especially for basic research. Although these expenditures are expected to increase over the 2004–14 projection period, resulting in some growth in employment and opportunities, the limited science research funds available still will result in competition for basic research jobs among Ph.D. holders. The need to replace physicists and astronomers who retire or otherwise leave the occupation permanently will account for most expected job openings.

Although research and development expenditures in private industry will continue to grow, many research laboratories in private industry are expected to continue to reduce basic research, which includes much physics research, in favor of applied or manufacturing research and product and software development. Nevertheless, persons with a physics background continue to be in demand in the areas of information technology, semiconductor technology, and other applied sciences. This trend is expected to continue; however, many of the new workers will have job titles such as computer software engineer, computer programmer, or systems analyst or developer, rather than physicist.

Throughout the 1990s, the number of doctorates granted in physics was much greater than the number of job openings for physicists, resulting in keen competition, particularly for research positions in colleges and universities and in research and development centers. Recent increases in undergraduate physics enrollments, however, may lead to growth in enrollments in graduate physics programs, so that toward the end of the projection period, there may be an increase in the number of doctoral degrees granted that will intensify the competition for job openings.

Opportunities may be more numerous for those with a master’s degree, particularly graduates from programs preparing students for applied research and development, product design, and manufacturing positions in private industry. Many of these positions, however, will have titles other than physicist, such as engineer or computer scientist.

Persons with only a bachelor’s degree in physics or astronomy are not qualified to enter most physicist or astronomer research jobs, but may qualify for a wide range of positions related to engineering, mathematics, computer science, environmental science, and, for those with the appropriate background, some nonscience fields, such as finance. Those who meet State certification requirements can become high school physics teachers, an occupation in strong demand in many school districts. Most States require new teachers to obtain a master’s degree in education within a certain time. (See the statement on teachers—preschool, kindergarten, elementary, middle, and secondary elsewhere in the Handbook.) Despite competition for traditional physics and astronomy research jobs, graduates with a physics or astronomy degree at any level will find their knowledge of science and mathematics useful for entry into many other occupations.

 

[ZapperZ]

Please. What are these jobs that "A LOT OF PHDs" get? Temp jobs? Post doc positions. What is the average amount of time it takes a Phd to find a permanent STABLE job?

1. Research staff positions in US Nat'l Labs

2. Faculty positions in universities

3. "Engineering" position in semiconductor and electronics industries.

And no, I did not graduate from one of the "brand name" universities. Yet, 4 out of 5 people who graduated in the same year as I did with our Ph.D's ended up in one of the 3 positions that I mentioned above. The 4th opened a business back in his home country.

The chemical industry is a giant when you compare the amount of businesses that would higher a chemist versus the amount of companies that would higher a physicist. If PhD chemists are having a hell of a time finding permanent positions, there is a pretty good chance that PhDs in other fields of science are as well.

But there are also more chemists graduating per year than there are physicists! For physicists, and I've mentioned this already elsewhere, if one wants to pursue a traditional physics career, more often than not, one has to do a postdoc, and for physicists, this is the larger portion of available jobs. This is because only a smaller percentage have the appropriate skill to go into industries without making a significant change in specialization. Such fields would include "experimental condensed matter" or "experimental optics", etc... This is why I said that using your example in the chemical industry isn't valid. Extremely few physics graduates at a B.Sc level can practice as a physicist.

Let me ask you, where did you have the privilege of going to school for your doctorate? Did you go to a big name school like Harvard, MIT, Cal tech. etc? Well most people with PhDs didn't go the few big name schools out there, so YOUR standards (if you did go to one of those schools) of how easily one can find a job don't apply to most doctorate students since they won't have the same connections or recognition with their PhD from a smaller university.

I hate to repeat the things I've already said in my So You Want To Be A Physicist essay, and what I've already said in here with regards to the dichotomy between experimentalists and theorists. Notice that I have mentioned about PEDIGREE, and I don't mean the dog food either, and how it tends to apply a lot, especially for those pursuing theoretical studies! But for experimentalists, they tend to be less dependent on it. You could come from a small school and you can still make quite an impact if that school specializes in only a few well-done experimental area, and especially if it is situated near a Nat'l Lab that provides the necessary facility. People seldom here about schools such as Iowa State or University of Illinois at Chicago, yet, many of their physics graduate students go on to get faculty position jobs simply because they made names for themselves in particular experimental areas that those schools specialize in or through their associations with various Nat'l Labs. If you have been here long enough, you would have seen several of my posts where I tell kids who think that they must attend only the brand name schools or bust to get out of that myth.

You want a reliable source for information? How about the US government's Bureau of Labor Statistics Job Outlook for Physicists?

.. and how did this contradicts what I have said? Again, there are several issues here that you continue to miss:

1. I have never said that being a physicist was easy, and that one will make a lot of money like you.

2. My objection was to your characterization that one should stop at a B.Sc level and go find a job. This is utterly irresponsible, because the job outlook for a B.Sc level physics major wanting to stay in physics is abysmal! There are extremely few to none, and the AIP has graphical details of the types of jobs such degree holder eventually end up with.

3. The job statistics that you quoted should be saved for a thread titled "Don't Do Physics!"

4. The bleak hiring rate in physics happens to coincide with the stagnant federal funding in physical sciences during the 90's and early this decade, while the NIH funding doubled in roughly that period. However, that doesn't reflect (i) the explosive growth in the medical physics and biophysics during that time as the result of doubling of NIH funding and (ii) the fact that the tables are now beginning to turn with the current FY2007 increase in DOE and NSF fundings AND the upcoming FY2008 budget increase. Both the current congress and the president have a strong agreement to pursue the doubling of funding for physical sciences over the next 10 years similar to what was done for the NIH. So if one were to follow the trend of funding versus job opportunities, there is every indication that more jobs will be available. Still, even under current situations, I've seen places that simply cannot hire people fast enough. Example: various nanoscience and nanotechnology centers that have just opened at several places around the country. If one could have forseen such an explosion 4 years ago, people who specializes in this area not only have unbelievable job opportunities at these places, but IBM, Xerox, and others are clamoring for such people right now!

This thread has now deteriorated from defending why one wants to consider continuing with a Ph.D in physics, into why one would even want to major in physics in the first place. If that is your original intention, then we can certainly switch gears and argue about that so that I can be clear what the battle lines are. However, if we are going back to the OP, then asking someone to stop at doing a B.Sc in physics by giving him/her the false impression that the job opportunities are wider and more plentiful based on such a degree alone, even in being able to continue in the same field, then that is a misinformation.

Zz.

 

[gravenewworld]

This thread has now deteriorated from defending why one wants to consider continuing with a Ph.D in physics, into why one would even want to major in physics in the first place. If that is your original intention, then we can certainly switch gears and argue about that so that I can be clear what the battle lines are.

Of course that was my intention all along. You know how much we chemistry students love physics

 

[L62]

IMO, you will be happy getting a PhD if you truly love doing the research enough to endure the hardships of (1) the phd process (2) the postdoc process (3) the tenure process, and by tenure I don't just mean academia because even in most national labs nowadays getting a permanent position requires you to first have a postdoc and such positions are also pretty scarce. And throughout all these stages you will have reduced income and geographic instability, which in turn can play havoc with your personal life.

If you don't plan on making your career in research or academia, then I think there isn't a practical reason to get a PhD. In industry it doesn't really enhance your career or open new doors (except maybe in R&D), as having a masters and experience is equivalent in most cases.

If your concerns about money, job stability, or employability outweigh your love for research and academic study, then don't get a PhD.

You CAN get a job in industry in spite of having a PhD, you just need to know how to market yourself. big problem is that so many science/engineering PhDs and postdocs don't take the time to develop their social skills to market themselves. True it will be harder in some fields than others, but in the end coming out of a PhD or postdoc you will have some transferable skills, whether experimental, analytical, mathematical or what not. e.g. a friend of mine (postdoc in atomic physics) said many of his lab mates got jobs on wall street. Other physics postdocs I know got jobs as engineers in industry doing things related to their lab skills. I recently got a job offer from a high-tech company based on the skills I had picked up along the way through the course of my phd and postdoc, and not because of my extensive knowledge in my tiny arcane area of expertise...besides many job ads request "MS with X years of experience, or PhD".

so I guess my advice to prospective grad students is, do you plan on trying for a career in academia (do you want to become a professor?) or doing research in a national lab or research isntitute? Such jobs are scarce and thus the road to getting them are long and tough and competitive and the chance of meeting a dead end are high. Do you still want to try for these careers? If yes, then by all means proceed with getting a phD. If not, then with the other option (industry) you are probably better off without a phD.

since IMO the only benefit to getting a phD is if you want a career in research or academia, and since the job outlook is so bleak in research/academia, that's why in general I think in the end the purely practical thing to do is don't get a phD.