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Drugs are bad M'kay?

  1. Aug 18, 2003 #1
    Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    Before we get started let me explain that I AM NOT a Christian. However, I have read the Bible (as well as many other religious texts) and studied the Torah in an academic context.

    Now, let us begin.

    How many of you consider the recreational use of drugs to be a sin? From a Christian context, this issue is not addressed in the Holy Bible. Many of you slow thinkers are probably saying to yourselves right now, nah ahh, Jesus said render unto Caesar... which implies that God commands us to respect the law of the society in which we live. If you truly believe this, then I would suggest to you that the use of drugs can only be a relative sin and not a natural sin. That is to say that it is only a sin because of the norms of the society in which one lives. Therefore, it may not be a sin in another society.

    If you believe in sin, then you believe in moral absolutes... and now have a paradox on your hands.

    eNtRopY
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2003
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  3. Aug 18, 2003 #2

    megashawn

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    I think most people who use drugs and believe in Christianity use the line from genisis, "And I give you all the fruit bearing plants to use for food and medicine" (not exact).

    Those who don't use drugs and believe in christianity generally fall back to the Body is a temple arguement.

    Really, I think you (not you specifically) need to more clearly define what a drug is, and what a dangerous addiction to said drug is. For instance, there is mounds and mounds of evidence that support marijauna being one of, if not, the safest recreational drug.
     
  4. Aug 18, 2003 #3

    Kerrie

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    abusing drugs is wrong - wrong for one's health, psyche, and emotionally well being...using drugs, well that is a matter of opinion (and can or cannot be illegal depending on where you live.)
     
  5. Aug 19, 2003 #4
    when i think about the use of drugs i recall this one line from the movie Cecil B. Demented when honey whitlock is talkting to one of the troubled teens about why he'd do drugs in this day and age...

    "before i did drugs i had so many problems, but now i have just one... drugs. it's really given my life focus."

    (that's not an exact quote but it's close)

    as to whether or not drugs are a sin, i'd say the occasional use of them to enjoy yourself is a-ok, but the abuse of a drug is absolutely a terrible thing to do and i don't believe god would appreciate that.
     
  6. Aug 19, 2003 #5
    That is very funny. :smile:

    Is it possible to abuse Viagra?
     
  7. Aug 19, 2003 #6

    LURCH

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    Re: Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    Not necessarily a paradox, if the moral absolute in which one believes is, "obey the laws of man except when they conflict with the laws of God". In which case drug abuse would indeed "...only be a relative sin...", but breaking the law (for any reason other than to obey God) would be absolute sin.

    Although drug abuse is not a major theme of the Bible, it is not entirely absent either. The one drug that is mentioned repeatedly throughout Scripture is alcohol. When referring to this drug the Bible appears to say two basic things;

    1) if you have a medical ailment for which this drug is the proper treatment, it is not wrong to take it.

    2) what is wrong is to take the drug just to get a buz.

    Obviously, addiction must be seen as an offense against God. An addict who is faced with a choice between doing what God would want him to do, and doing what he has to to get his next fix, will choose the drug. This places the drug in a place of higher priority than God. In the life of a junkie, the drug takes first priority; therefore, the drug is his god. This is the purest form of idolatry.
     
  8. Aug 21, 2003 #7

    Tom Mattson

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    Re: Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    Yes, it is.

    Galatians 5:19-21:
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    The Greek word rendered "witchcraft" here is "pharmakeia". Note the resemblance to the English word "pharmacy". It means...

    1. the use or the administering of drugs
    2. poisoning
    3. sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
    4. metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry
     
  9. Aug 21, 2003 #8

    Tom Mattson

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    And again,

    "Reality is a crutch for people who can't cope with drugs."
    --Lily Tomlin

    ba dum bum
     
  10. Aug 21, 2003 #9

    megashawn

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    Hmm, seems like yet another biblical contradiction Tom.

    Gen 1:29

    And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food."

    Does what you quote also mean we shouldn't take advil?
     
  11. Aug 21, 2003 #10
    Re: Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    A possible reference to some mind expanding drug?
     
  12. Aug 21, 2003 #11

    LURCH

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    Re: Re: Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    Yeah, I had considered mentioning that, but left it out because I was pretty certain that the main reason for this prohibition against witchcraft was not because of its association with drug use. However, the connection is certainly well worth noting.
     
  13. Aug 21, 2003 #12

    Kerrie

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    lily tomlin is one of the wisest women to ever live...
     
  14. Aug 21, 2003 #13

    Tom Mattson

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    Re: Re: Re: Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    The reason I mentioned it is that in every other biblical prohibition against witchcraft, the Greek word "magia" ("magic"--duh :wink:) was used. When NT translators ran across "pharmakeia" they translated it "witchcraft", but why not translate it "drug use"?

    We need Kat here...
     
  15. Aug 22, 2003 #14
    if it said you could do drugs in the bible would you even do them anyways?? would it change your opinion??
     
  16. Sep 2, 2003 #15
    Re: Re: Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    Yeah, my born-again Christian mother used to tell me the same thing when I was in high school... the consumption of drugs and alcohol is a form of witchcraft. The fact that you have to resort to using an archaic definition of a loosely translated word demonstrates to me how dead Christianity really is.

    Stop grasping at straws. It's really just an insult to intelligence in general.

    eNtRopY
     
  17. Sep 2, 2003 #16

    kat

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    Hi Tom :wink:, Sorry I didn't see this earlier.

    I think the difference is that Mageia (greek, feminine noun, can be used collectively for male and female) would focus on amazing the crowds with trickery, as an example levitation, disapearing acts etc. It also could be used in reference to wisemen, astrologist, soothsayers.
    A little background on "Pharmakeia" which is also a feminine noun that can be used collectively, it references the herbalist of the time who were almost always female. It was one of the few businesses available to single women, herbalism was complex so there was an aura of secrecy to it. They also were fond of saying incantations or using symbolic items etc to increase the "mystery" around their practice. It gave them both power and prestige, it would have also increased their incomes and perhaps the more mystical it appeared the greater price people were willing to pay for their "potions". These women challenged the authority structure of both Paul's church and the society of the time in general. The ability to heal, poison, abort fetuses, etc. gave them an incredible amount of power and would have created a diversion from God and Christianity. So, you have that aspect of that term used here.
    Later, there are frequent references in church writings (not scripture) referring to abortionist using the term "pharmakeia". Outside of the church Plutarch uses the term pharmakeia in reference to contraception and abortion.
    Clement of Alexandria identifies pharmakeia as an abortifacent.
    An early church council in the capital of Galatia referenced adulterous woman who who avail themselves to pharmakeia for abortion.

    Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
    an adjective signifying "devoted to magical arts," is used as a noun, "a sorcerer," especially one who uses drugs, potions, spells, enchantments, Rev. 21:8, in the best texts (some have pharmakeus), and Rev. 22:15.

    Plato writes of Pharmakeia the Naias Nymphe of a poisonous spring near Athens, Orithyia is swept away by Boreas while she was playing with Pharmacia. Later Socrates compares the written texts Phaedrus has brought along to pharmakon, he describes it as both a cure and poison.

    We also find reference to Pharmakeia in Apollodorus:

    "mian de echôn naun Aiaiêi nêsôi prosischei. tautên katôikei Kirkê, thugatêr Hêliou kai Persês, Aiêtou de adelphê, pantôn empeiros ousa pharmakôn." Or in English "With one ship he put in to the Aeaean isle. It was inhabited by Circe, a daughter of the Sun and of Perse, and a sister of Aeetes; skilled in all enchantments was she." this is a reference to the use of drugs for magical purposes.

    Also, the Greek word translated as "do" is Prasso, better translated as to practice, to excercise, to be busy with, to carry on.
     
  18. Sep 2, 2003 #17

    kat

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    Re: Re: Re: Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

    This was really rude and unnecessary...
     
  19. May 18, 2004 #18
    Hey, I'm new, so be gentle.
    Drugs, drugs, drugs. To truley understand this argument it takes express knowledge of drugs or enlightenment from the creator and an understanding of moral tresspass, (or incredible faith, much like that of a child who belives his dad when told, "Don't touch that, it will burn you!").
    Drunkeness is a sin because were are comanded to not become drunk, which leads to debauchery, and a sick mind, (I'll dig up referances latter). Most other drugs become dangerous when utilized, as some can only be, with an express porpous in mind. The first time I used many drugs all I felt was the effect of thoes drugs on my mind and body. At this time I was a huminist/atheist who had no belife therefore no interest in the spiritual aspect of the human experiance. I.E. what you see is what you get and when you die you are only so much compost. I remember when that all changed for me.
    I had used LSD probably fourty times of more before I "Broke Through" as it were. There came a point when I felt the urge to "let go completley" of self and rational thought, and when I did I found myself "enlightend", or awakend to a world of spiritual relms. I later found that I could duplicate the experiance via meditation, TM, yoga, practicing astral projection...etc. I later found out from a Yogi that indeed the same states of alterd conciousness could be acheived with the use of certain drugs, but he thought that method was lazy, and looked uppon by most in that relm of these disciplines as somehow a crutch, making for a second rate citizen among the "enlightened", as it were. (I later found that, for me the opiates were the most reliable and least harsh on the natural mind for this practice.) I also found out that when one becomes involved in this, (witchcraft), weather through drugs or other, less illicit routs, he becomes enslaved. The bondage is actually quite strong. The happy feelings and self awarness one thinks he finds is actually a fetter. And things become quite hellish for him who seeks to be released from his bondage through Jesus Christ's redemption on the cross.
    You see, witchcraft is an attempt to assert your own will over creation, (weather the natural or spiritual creation), which is what got Lucifer, (light-barrer), kicked out of heaven in the first place, and the exact same attitude behind Adamic, (original), sin, (I.E. rebellion in the garden by eating 'the fruit'). The lie goes something like, "For God knows that once you eat of eat you will become like God, knowing both good and evil".
    There are basicly only two religions in the world; Either God is God, or man is god. If you realy are seeking the external and imutable truth concerning moral tresspass and the use of drugs as witchcraft, try this; Submit your life to Jesus, accept his gift of salvation, and true wisdom concerning such things will be yours.
    Or, if you want to try a more circtuitous route, become enslaved by pharmacia, or witchcraft, or TM, yoga, mantra, or many other new age occultic routes to the spiritual relm, and find out for yourself; either when you die and are judged, or find the grace and hope that is in Christ Jesus and find redemption.
    In defense of drugs and Genisis; God did give every seed bearing plant to us for medicine and whatnot, (excluding, of corse, the tree of the knowlege of good and evil). My favorite drug I used for witchcraft, opiates, in most anny form, is obviously given by God to man for the relief of pain. Mankind has not come up with it's equal in the lab. I'd imagine most any plant can be found to have redemptive proporties when used in the proper mannor. But as far as, "harmless recreation" goes, the answer is no. What, are you bored with the gift of the mind God granted you? What a slap in the face of Jesus! He created something so profound that it can ponder the deep things of his creation, and we go and alter the way it works. By the way, be honest with yourself; Does getting high really improve or "enlighten" the mind? I've found just the opposite to be true. I'm speaking from experiance. Don't belive me? Look for yourself at the pletera of data in the scientific comunity. Oh, I agree that, for the poet it may bring some interesting thoughts, or beautiful pictures to the mind of the painter, or musical inovations to the artist. Granted. But was it the chemical that encoded thoes expressions in his mind? Naw, your selling yourself short if you belive that. Only the sober mind can truely conceive the profound, everything else is just fooling yourself.
    Okay. I hope I don't get flamed, but I would relly like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
     
  20. May 18, 2004 #19

    hypnagogue

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    And the same could not be said for any religious faith?

    In the proper contexts, yes, it can. I'm speaking from experience.

    edit: I should emphasize 'proper contexts.' It is certainly true that much, if not most, drug use cannot properly be called 'enlightening,' and that even repeated use of the same drug may or may not produce/reproduce such an effect, and that excessive, long term drug use is not in anyone's best interest. However, I must maintain that your categorical denial of the value of any and all drug use is misguided. Certain drugs used in certain contexts, with a bit of serendipity, can and do produce states that can rightfully be called 'enlightening' or 'spiritual experiences.' I say this not in the interest of prescribing how one should live one's life, but rather in the interest of stating the plain fact of the matter.

    Not only is this an a priori assumption / gross generalization with no real basis, it also undercuts the very religious bedrock you are trying to establish. The truly great influences in all religions have had inspirations stemming from visions, spiritual experiences, and the like-- clearly states of mind that could not be properly called 'sober.'

    William James provides an extensive argument against your assertion in his book The Varieties of Religious Experience, posted here. Here's a relevant excerpt:

    Note that James is speaking here in defense of the insights garnered from religious experiences, but the argument generalizes to cover insights garnered from any sort of mental constitution that is different from the norm (not 'sober').
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2004
  21. May 21, 2004 #20

    honestrosewater

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    Huh huh he said astral uh huh hyeah... :rofl:
     
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