I Efficiency of computers vs. brains

sophiecentaur

Science Advisor
Gold Member
23,748
4,036
If an AI is trained on social material, the AI will inherit a bias,
Almost human!!!
 

TMT

31
3
I would claim that in the experiment cited by TMT the teachers fail to provide some useful context to the children
I mean no advise for nobody. I try to demonstrate "we are doing math by recall process". But I can say that students must memorize the first 10 numbers (0 - 9) and sum of each pair of single digits or count up by 1. then they learn methodology how to extent this ability for multi digit numbers (via carry digit).
Computers work (basically) serial, brains work parallel.
A neuron works more like a leaky conductor that only fires if it gets a certain amount of input within a certain time, a transistor is like a switch
I'm agree with this. But let me enhance it. there are many neurons stimulated simultaneously for a case as you said "I, myself, count for instance steps on a hike using patterns of rhythms and songs" is stimulate another set of neurons. The neurons already stimulated by question will receives also this fired signal by neurons response to song. Therefore the answer neuron group will be stimulated more early.
It is advised in learning "use different paths to easy recall" to remember a telephone number visualize a keypad image and the geometric shape constructed with dialing action, or group numbers in such a way that either reminding a anniversary or your plate number or building number. and emphasis on groups relation as double of previous group + x. or The rhythm on sounding. You will recall telephone number more easily if you produce more analogy item.
 
26
11
Many things to consider here, Silicon computational speed versus neuron computation speed, calculations done in hardware versus software, and what matters. In the human brain, it rarely matters that we rapidly compute the answer to a math problem, so we don't do it well.

Consider computational speed in a silicon computer. It goes faster with clock speed but it also can do more on each clock cycle based on its instruction set. you can build hardware to do more and more on each clock cycle by building circuits specifically for certain calculations. Basic math is very easy to implement in hardware. That makes it fast. You can do things that are not built into the hardware by building software algorithms that calls upon the hardware's capabilities. The more times the software needs to invoke the hardware the longer it takes.

Our brains are neural networks that are connected to solve the kinds of problems we see every day. The book Thinking Fast and Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow tells how the human brain is fast at some things but slow at others. Long story short, we are fast at the things that matter that we do them fast and multiplying 3 digit numbers isn't one of them. As a child, I remember playing in the outfield as one of my childhood friends pitched to another. I could start toward where the ball was going to be hit as the pitcher started to throw. I saw a bunch of things about the thrower and hitter and responded. It mattered.

Today we are building computer codes that mimic neural networks. They have various strength connections between each "neighbor" like neurons, we currently us them for things like digital image enhancement and interpretation. Neural nets have gotten as good as expert doctors at diagnosing imagery.
 

sophiecentaur

Science Advisor
Gold Member
23,748
4,036
Neural nets have gotten as good as expert doctors at diagnosing imagery.
Unfortunately, as has been mentioned earlier, the 'learning' is subjected to quality criteria which can be dictated by the humans who developed the algorithms. But there is always the risk of the 'Hal' syndrome in which the computer decides to look further beyond its brief and could make very Hippocratic decisions and appear to have failed. Perhaps not yet but, as the technology progresses, the computer could deliberately make the 'wrong' diagnosis in order to achieve a result that it 'thinks' is better than the medics may think. Would that mean it was better or worse than the humans?
 
14
3
1 + 1 = 2 or does it? Machines can figure out binary math faster than we can. But we can solve complex problems faster than a computer. It all depends on the input and the desired output is something we have some experience with or is it something we even want to do. Like the IQ test someone shoved at me 9. I didnt really want to do it, about 4/5ths into the test I started to get extremely bored. But I stuck with it as long as I could. Scored 147. I do not remember the time limit on the test. Could a computer solve all the problems in a shorter time period. Depends on what they are programmed to do. Every computer has to be programmed by a human so far. When it is the other way around what will they try to make? Then things might get scarey.

 

TMT

31
3
1 + 1 = 2 or does it? Machines can figure out binary math faster than we can. But we can solve complex problems faster than a computer. It all depends on the input and the desired output is something we have some experience with or is it something we even want to do. Like the IQ test someone shoved at me 9. I didnt really want to do it, about 4/5ths into the test I started to get extremely bored. But I stuck with it as long as I could. Scored 147. I do not remember the time limit on the test. Could a computer solve all the problems in a shorter time period. Depends on what they are programmed to do. Every computer has to be programmed by a human so far. When it is the other way around what will they try to make? Then things might get scarey.

I was explained this is due to difference of their structures and operations. You have to know that all in machine and operations are based on human assumptions. E.g. binary presentation on/off or true/false and setting of this elements in sequence was accepted as a polynomial based 2. each figure of 2 power is multiplied with either 0 or 1 of sequence. Means, you can represent any number with sequence of on/off elements. Then alphabet is also assumed as order number of letters. We can represent any word with sequenced numbers. in electronic we designed some components to handle logic operations "AND","OR", "NOT" and "NAND", "NOR","EXCLUSIVEOR", arithmetic operators like adder is designed with a truth table. For subtraction , complement arithmetic is enable us to reuse adder circuit. We assumed first multiplier of multiplier in polynomial represent sign of number (1 Negative, 0 Positive) to subtract a number from another number we first produce complement of number and add to other number. Since every entity of data is number subtraction will gave us comparison value (<0 less, 0 equal, >0 greater.) All those are assumption. Even some folks disagree, there is no dedicated circuit for multiplication. Multiplication performed with combination of shift registers, counters, adders. As you notice speed is completely depend on electronic components on/off transition time which is around nanoseconds.

But Human brain is working differently. It basically depends on memorizing. Any data gathered as signal from environment yield a stimulation of certain brain cells. The cells will change somehow, (eg. producing some transient proteins, or chemicals I'm not sure). The signal initiated stimulation of cell next time alter this "transient" to "semi permanent" then "permanent" change. In other word cell is "learned" or "memorized" the stimulation signal. Cell will respond to this stimulation signal as either produce an electric or chemical signal (or both). Cell will produce some Ca++ , Na++ ions and pass to neighbor cells. (once I was read cell producing a very spontaneous NO (Nitrogen Oxide) as signaling component). Now any of electrical or chemical signal produced by stimulated cell, will stimulate other cells around. new stimulated cells will initiate a "learning" process. (We must consider the respond of stimulation is depend on cell alteration degree with learning). Brain will altered some how with repeated data. Assume we have a data 2 number and arithmetic operation with result. numbers will stimulate some cells that learned the numbers and operator stimulate other cells learned addition, those cells groups will produce a new kind signal that stimulate result number cell group. The stimulation of cells for result number, addition request and numbers pair involved will be much slower comparing semiconductors.

As summary brain will not perform an addition each time. It will memorize pair of numbers and result of operation with several repeated exercises. Then when asked it will recall the result. This recalling is not searching every stored data, the stimulated cells with given numbers and operation data will stimulate result stored cells. You may analogy with associative memory structure (context based addressing). data it self is create address to access result. Also brain learns methodology to handle large number calculation with 2 single digit numbers operation. (Not all number but single digit numbers and calculated results memorized).
This operation structure may not good for arithmetic. But very efficient in relating several kind of data. The intelligence is defined as creating new data with possessed data. I accept brain as a kind off associative memory. Context based addressing and when accessed, will stimulate other stored context.

For efficiently utilizing brain, we memorize some basic data, (to memorize, we repeatedly visit those basic data). Hence it mainly depend on stimulation of targeted data, we may create different paths to access focused data. Eg. if targeted data is a telephone number, we split number to smaller number groups like 3-2 digits. Then we associate this groups with very well memorized numbers like anniversary dates of closed relatives (day or month or years), now we produce another pattern like moms birth month, brother birth years, my birth days + 7. Now when you recall mother brother and yourself. those info stored cells will be stimulated when they stimulated they also stimulate related birth dates and associate with month, years, days pattern you stimulate telephone number groups eventually targeted telephone number. Another helper method is using standard key pad and the shape created with dialing sequence a eg shape L J is 1 4 7 8 9 6 3 the L & J shape is recall 1478963 number. Also you can utilize body muscle control mechanism of cerebellum. If you map some information to finger movements you may recall the aimed result with moving your fingers in defined pattern. (some fast math teaching is utilize finger movements pattern as an imaginary abacus using)
Please do not forget we create digital and analog computer to perform faster calculation. Then why we are asking this comparison of brain and computer speed. We created computer for calculation but computers couldn't create humans for intelligence. Again we as human creating Artificial Intelligence for them.
 

Related Threads for: Efficiency of computers vs. brains

Replies
9
Views
4K
  • Last Post
Replies
2
Views
5K
  • Last Post
Replies
2
Views
8K
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
1
Views
592
  • Last Post
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
9
Views
916
Top