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News Egypt's Islamists warn giving women some rights could destroy society

  1. Mar 15, 2013 #1

    Evo

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    Women aren't cattle, they're not "owned" and should have the same rights as men. I just find this attitude toward women unacceptable.

    http://news.yahoo.com/egypts-islamists-warn-giving-women-rights-could-destroy-061331905.html [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2017
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  3. Mar 15, 2013 #2

    Astronuc

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    Egalitarian societies thrive. Inequality destroys, or otherwise diminishes a society or group.

    Equity and reciprocity are necessary.
     
  4. Mar 15, 2013 #3

    jim hardy

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  5. Mar 15, 2013 #4

    Evo

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  6. Mar 15, 2013 #5


    I seriously doubt that they will. Unfortunately progress like women's rights has not touched that part of the world in a meaningful way and it will take a lot more before it finally does, if ever. Still it is sad though, women in general seemed to have had more rights under secular dictators like Saddam and Mubarak than islamist democracies......
     
  7. Mar 16, 2013 #6
    My understanding is $250 million is part of the Camp David agreement, not just a "give":) Egypt is expected to buy US weaponry. So this is just an international business deal. Muslim brotherhood wants to come out of this treaty.

    In a bigger picture, it all runs on money, and no one cares about human rights. They all say it to make common people like you and me to make feel good.

    Saudi is one of the countries with the worst women right laws among other Arab countries. And it is the most friendly Arab country to US.
     
  8. Mar 16, 2013 #7

    AlephZero

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    So long as "you" treat all other countries equally in that respect (best not to name manes, when most of the ban-guns are controlled of the US :smile:), it sounds like a wim-win situation.

    The US gets to stay rich. The rest of the world gets to carry on doing whatever it wants. What's to liose?
     
  9. Mar 16, 2013 #8

    Vanadium 50

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    I'm afraid you are going to have to accept it, because...

    ...it's a part of the Islamist value system that there is a hierarchy: Islamic men at the top, Jewish women at the bottom. The concept of "equality", which the west sees as a virtue, is something that the Islamists see as a direct attack on their religion.

    Their minds won't be changed by conditions of foreign aid. Or anything, really. Your choices are to accept it today, and hope to change the minds of the next generation or the one after that (and part of the reason for foreign aid is to change their minds), or a massive military action to strip these people of their political power. I don't think that's realistic.
     
  10. Mar 16, 2013 #9
    I would add to that: "and homosexuals underground".
     
  11. Mar 16, 2013 #10

    Ryan_m_b

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    Unfortunately this kind of self correcting system isn't true IMO. For thousands of years women and other groups were subjected and society still flourished. In addition even in the west we live in patriarchal societies riddled with privilage. We might be more egalitarian but that doesn't make us absolutely so.
     
  12. Mar 16, 2013 #11
    Islamism teaches that women are inferior to men in the Qu'ran, the Muslim Brotherhood aren't even extremists. As long as islamists control a government, those will always be the rules. The same could be said for Christians or Jews perhaps, as the Old Testament says the woman shall be dominated by the man...
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  13. Mar 16, 2013 #12
    I dont know that it is really fair to say that about islamists. In Turkey, 99.8 percent of the population identify their religion as Islam, yet they seem to be making strides towards equalization between men and women. Im not saying Turkey is perfect at it, but they do seem to recognize it is a problem and are trying to fix it. They have even had a female prime minister.
     
  14. Mar 16, 2013 #13

    mheslep

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    I don't think the value system described is as fundamental to Islam in general as it is to particular Islamic sects (that I call radical) which have risen in prominence. See for example:

    Cairo University
    1959, no vails.
    http://c481901.r1.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/egypt1.jpg [Broken]

    1995, about 50% vails
    http://c481901.r1.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/egypt3.jpg [Broken]

    2004, all vails, few exceptions.
    http://c481901.r1.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/egypt4.jpg [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2017
  15. Mar 16, 2013 #14

    mheslep

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    The suppression of women is one of the major reasons given by some scholars to explain why Islamic countries gradually fell behind their western counterparts, after initially being more advanced - better mathematics, better scholarship and government in general for some centuries. Yes productivity increased slowly for both in the Middle Ages but later failed to keep pace in Islamic countries as the West's productivity exploded during the Renaissance.

    What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East
     
  16. Mar 17, 2013 #15

    Or we could ignore them, worry about our own society, and assimilate anyone who immigrates.
     
  17. Mar 17, 2013 #16

    Vanadium 50

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    Which is why I said Islamist and not Muslim.
     
  18. Mar 17, 2013 #17

    Vanadium 50

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    Sounds a lot like "accept" to me.
     
  19. Mar 17, 2013 #18

    I have to question that notion. Until very recently the West didn't really have any women's rights either, an example of that was during the Victorian era women essentially were the legal property of their husbands. They had no right to own property, to file lawsuits, to vote and what wages she might have earned were to be turned over entirely to her husband who had total control over the families financial affairs.

    The problem I think is a lot more fundamental. Since the end of the Dark Ages in Europe, Western societies have had a number of very significant, groundbreaking reform movements. Off hand I can think of the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Women's Rights and Civil Rights movements. All of these had monumental effects and essentially gave us the Western world as we know it today. But here's the rub: Those reform movements didn't really happen in the non-Western world. The Reformation, for example, gave us the modern idea of separation of church and state, but that didn't happen in the Islamic world. This is why Islam almost always appears to be intertwining itself with the state it inhabits, this is why when the Islamists took power they wanted to cram as much Sharia into their constitution as possible and why areas in Europe with high muslim immigration have (especially in the UK) tried to setup their own parallel legal system based elusively on Sharia. Now there are some areas that did have some of these reform movements and not others, like Turkey for now does have a decently strong separation between mosque and state.

    This also applies to other parts of the non-Western world too to greater or lesser degrees. Japan for example did adopt the enlightenment, but not any of the others. Shinto-ism was essentially the state endorsed religion and still believed in the royal family's divine right all the way until the end of World War 2. They didn't reform that willingly, they adopted the separation of temple and state only after we firebombed their cities, nuked them twice, and then put a gun to their head and told them this is how they will govern themselves from now on (the post war Japanese constitutional revisions were more or less written by the US occupying authority). That is why Japan has the appearance of a modern state with a modern economy and political system while women are still second class citizens and racism is quite prevalent both against foreigners and the Ainu.

    In a way it's like looking back through time to varying points in our own history. If you want to see many of the kinds of behaviors and values our ancestors had at one time or another. It also goes a long way towards explaining why things in the world are the way that they are.
     
  20. Mar 17, 2013 #19
    If by "accept" you mean "accept that your country doesn't have infinite powers to change the world" Then I'd agree.

    If by "accept" you mean "find this attitude acceptable" then I'd disagree.
     
  21. Mar 17, 2013 #20

    Evo

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    It's the UN, not a country.
     
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