# Electromagnetic Propulsion?

1. Aug 24, 2004

### K.J.Healey

Im just wondering what you guys think of electromagnetic propulsion via asymmetric capacitors and high-voltage. If you've heard of it, what are your ideas on it? Do you believe it is ion propulsion or something else?
There are also the additional components of the Lorentz force when derived using larger dimensional algebras, like quaternions or octonions. I'm just wondering what you guys/girls think, and if you have discussed this here before.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifteriw.htm
http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/arl_fac/0211001.pdf [Broken]

or just search Google for asymmetric capacitor.

Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
2. Aug 24, 2004

### chroot

Staff Emeritus
I think this thread is bordering on crackpottery.

- Warren

3. Aug 24, 2004

### Dominguez Scaramanga

what makes you say that..?

4. Aug 24, 2004

### K.J.Healey

Its an actual thing that happens. It has been recreated in labs where I work, and at my school. NASA believes it is just ion wind that generates the impulse, though there has been experiments in near vacuum that have a force greater than expected by ion wind.

The force seems to have to do with the much more dense gradient field around the smaller capacitor plate/point. We have proportionality equations for force versus potential and force versus current, but im not sure if I can say, so I cant. But I do know that so far there is minimal dependency on the dielectric. And from other sites it appears the density of the materials used, and the mass relationship both affect the force (positive proportionality).

Also, I do not work on the project here at the labs, but it has been discussed briefly.

5. Aug 24, 2004

### chroot

Staff Emeritus
I'm not arguing that lifters work. They just definitely aren't the gateway to zero-point energy, or antigravity generators, or anything else that they are often claimed to be. There's a definite internet subculture that thinks that lifters are some kind of vast new physical landscape. When anyone mentions "lifter," I am piqued, because inane crackpottery almost always immediately follows.

- Warren

6. Aug 24, 2004

### K.J.Healey

Ahh, i understand where you're coming from then. I'm a firm objector of people claiming it is anti-gravity or perpetual motion nonsense.

But the fact remains that it is still an effect that is unexplained. Regardless of all the internet hype the effect should still be an interest to physicists (assuming its not ion wind). I mean, isnt this what us physicists attempt to do? Explain the unexplained?

I also do not believe its some crazy effect that is breaking all the rules of thermodynamics and electromagnetics. But it also alludes to the possibility of maxwell's equations being incomplete. Feynman's derivation of maxwell's equations using quaternions and a generalized n-dimensional vector product leads to multiple new factors in the Lorentz force law. Ill try to dig up Feynman's paper, I know I have it somewhere.

http://www.ensmp.fr/aflb/AFLB-272/aflb272p241.pdf [Broken]

I would just like to reiterate that I also dislike the hype and take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt. I assume this site/forum is a constant source of topics such as : "Experiment in italy transmits data faster than speed of light! Can we now travel back in time!?!?!"

I hate to discourage active imaginations; imagination is the source of creativity, a necessity in the physics field.

Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
7. Aug 24, 2004

### chroot

Staff Emeritus
From what I understand, it's just an electrostatic effect. Most of the experiments which claim to demonstrate unknown physics are really just so poorly designed that there's no way a physicist could draw any conclusions from them.

And yes, we have to deal with the constant barrage of crackpots here, but we do our very best to eliminate bad posts quickly.

- Warren