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European Empire?

  1. Sep 23, 2003 #1
    and French President and German Chancellor as European Emperors. New European constitution (written by former French president d`Estaign) removes veto right from member countries. Every unpleasant government can be ignored and voted down (as Austria a few years ago). Every independent opinion (to world events) can be silenced by official foreign minister or President(named in fact by France and Germany). Europe will not be any democratic federation but real feudal Empire - no law for major countries (France and Germany ignore international treaty (Stability Pact) and reject to pay defined sanctions). New countries joined in fear from economical revenge for refuse. UK hoped that new countries help to break France-German hegemony in EU, but they are scared from them and never will vote against them. In Czech republic only 47% voted YES for EU and in other candidate countries is the number similar. Europe was united many times - Rome, Napoleon`s Empire, Hitler`s 3rd Reich. Millions of deads always followed the empires... Let see on Mr Chirac. Does he talking as elected representative of 50milions France citizens or talking as Lord of 500milions slaves in EU and adjacent countries (Ukraine, Turkey, Norway or Marocco)?
     
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  3. Sep 23, 2003 #2
    ya, there are a few sick people that don't care much for democracy and have some rather twisted ideals. unfortnaly they are often the ones in power; some of them even seem to want to make the eu into a new babylon.
     
  4. Sep 23, 2003 #3
    The thing i find most disturbing is that Tony is apparently considering to 'sign' the UK over to the french and germans, even though it will take away all of the governements power over all major decisions.
     
  5. Sep 23, 2003 #4

    FZ+

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    Sadly, the UK was very much in favour of the preservation of the vetos for the UK as a condition for greater entry into the EU.

    The new constitution is pretty much an unhappy compromise - it displeases hardliners who want the EU to put centralised stability first, and it displeases the liberals who want a more loose europe.
     
  6. Sep 23, 2003 #5

    GENIERE

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    It’s hard to understand why The Brits would desire to be assimilated into the EU. Whereas the continentals trade primarily among themselves, England has global trading partners. England is oil self-sufficient, the rest import. England has a comparative robust economy while the rest flounder. England has a wonderful history while the rest have dismal histories. England exported democracy across the planet while the rest contributed little or suffered under tyranny. England remains a world power, the rest degenerating under the yoke of socialism.
     
  7. Sep 23, 2003 #6

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    Er hmm... Let us just briefly note what the government of the UK is at this time... in comparison to say, the government of France.

    This isn't a right/left wing issue.
     
  8. Sep 23, 2003 #7
    well it is to the people out on a wing. ;)
     
  9. Sep 23, 2003 #8

    russ_watters

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    Just want to point out one thing: there is a big difference between unifying countries by force and doing so by VOTE.

    I'm not up on the specifics of the current proposals but the general idea of European unification is (in general) a good thing for Europeans.
     
  10. Sep 24, 2003 #9

    GENIERE

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    It’s always a question of politics of the left or right. Smith I’m sure sees Britain’s participation in the EU much differently than does Blair. One sees it as a full integration, while the other sees it as an economic integration with limited political ties.

    Although the French president is a right-winger, France is really ruled by the vast bureaucracy of civil servants acting as un-elected policy makers. Frances remains a socialist state.

    I agree that it is beneficial for the all of Europe to enjoy some type of economic union as well as a loosely knit political union. It will otherwise be impossible to compete with the USA now and greater Asia in the future. The Airbus is an example of successful venture, which would not have been possible without co-operative nations.

    Europe seems to face a bleak future as the dark cloud of negative population growth looms. In about 20 years, there will be an insufficient labor force to support those on pensions as well as many other social programs. The only answer to this is a huge influx of immigrants. The acceptance of immigrants is not likely to be well received by the natives as racism will rear its ugly head
     
  11. Sep 24, 2003 #10
    Nothing wrong with socialism...:wink:
     
  12. Sep 24, 2003 #11

    russ_watters

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    Um.... Ahh, nevermind, you already know.
     
  13. Sep 24, 2003 #12
    Yeah, I sure do...
     
  14. Sep 24, 2003 #13

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    Isn't that a right-wing specialty? :wink:
     
  15. Sep 25, 2003 #14
    yeah, after all who are those greek guys who invented democracy? did they paid copyright???
    and what was "pax romana"? some kind of cheese maybe....

    could you exemplify some more of that dismal histories???
     
  16. Sep 25, 2003 #15

    GENIERE

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    Many civilizations have had their moments of glory including the Mongols, and Persians but you might call it ancient history. I was thinking more in terms of the last 3 or 4 centuries. I have an Italian not English heritage but the Roman Empire pales in comparison to the English Empire. The Romans merely ruled with an iron hand and looted those it conquered leaving behind roads, bridges, buildings and little else. The English ruled and looted but when the empire collapsed it left behind a treasure of efficient civil servants, a system of law, education and commerce. It provided us a worldwide language. I think only Spain came close to having such worldwide influence. I take some pleasure in the fact that many Brits also have an Italian heritage. The Legionnaires had a lot of free time while manning Hadrian’s Wall for several hundred years. Enjoying the natural advantage Itals have in matters of amore, many with an eye for the local wench had successful encounters.
     
  17. Sep 26, 2003 #16
    you can't compare facts separated by 2000 years. maybe the English empire will be just a footnote in the history books 2000 years from now....
    What I'm saying is that if England dont' wanna ba a part of the European "Empire" I'm sure nobody will try to force it. There's no need of that "we are so much more civilised than you" arguments....
     
  18. Sep 26, 2003 #17
    If my history is accurate (and it probably isnt) the British never invaded/conquered Romania, and look at yourselfs now. But if you take a look at the vast majority of countries that where part of the commonwealth look at how well they are doing now.
     
  19. Sep 26, 2003 #18
    Yeah, England but you forgot about the U.S. We played a big role. Bagehot did write that the only real Republics in his time were the U.S.A and England. But, patriotically he said England's was the best :)

    Greater Europe has a dismal history. Socialism is hurting it right now though some would say there is no problem with it. France wants to crown Paris capital of Europe and perhaps even the world.

    The new Union is of the U.S. and the European nations that did not side with France during the Iraq resolution fiasco.

    And there will not likely be a shortage of labor in the U.S. any time soon. The whole nation was built on immigration and it is still seeing millions coming in over the years. Hell, I'm only second generation American. I have very shallow roots in the U.S. but I'm proud.
     
  20. Sep 26, 2003 #19
    Great Britain has always been the Strongest allie that the Americans have had and vice versa, but for some reason that isnt stopping his tonyness from trying to sign the country over to those damn Europeans. The British Public want none of it, yet it looks like it will happen and what was once the powerful nation on earth will be playing second fiddle to the french and germans, how pathetic.
     
  21. Sep 26, 2003 #20

    GENIERE

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    No I didn't forget about the USA, but consider it the first and greatest example of a new democracy built on the ashes of a dying empire.

    To be sure, I'm not saying the English accomplished what they did for an altruistic purpose. On the contrary, the motive was simple lust of wealth by the wealthy. One nation that fared poorly than and now is Ireland. For a thousand years the Irish were treated much as Stalin treated the Jews.
     
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