Even the conservatives have turned on Bush

  • #1
Ivan Seeking
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A massive federal budget deficit

JIM LEHRER: Let's talk about the cost. You say the conservatives are upset. How upset are they and what are they going to do about it?

DAVID BROOKS: They are upset for a lot of reasons. Some of it is Katrina - anger just with reaction. A lot of it is that. Again Katrina is always the end of a long accumulation of events and for conservatives on spending, you have got a highway bill which was ridiculous, a travesty of pork barrel spending; you had an Ag bill; you had really five years in which George Bush has spent money at a faster clip than Lyndon Johnson.

JIM LEHRER: Say that again.

DAVID BROOKS: Domestic discretionary spending - non-defense spending - non-homeland security spending -- has increased.

JIM LEHRER: Non-Social Security, none all of those things -

DAVID BROOKS: -- has increased under George W. Bush twice as fast as under Bill Clinton, and faster than under Lyndon Baines Johnson. Conservatives didn't expect that in 2000. I guarantee you that. A lot of it is, frankly, the Republican Congress's fault. If you look back - when we look back on this period, we are going to look at a Congress that came preaching limited government but just has gone hog-wild in spending, and a president who never disciplined members of his own party to restrain themselves.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/political_wrap/july-dec05/sb_9-23.html [Broken]
 
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  • #2
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Ivan Seeking said:
A massive federal budget deficit


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/political_wrap/july-dec05/sb_9-23.html [Broken]
But... but.... but.... he gave me a tax break!
 
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  • #3
SOS2008
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The pushback on Katrina aid, which the White House is also confronting among House Republicans, represents the loudest and most widespread dissent Bush has faced from his own party since it took full control of Congress in 2002.
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Conservatives are calling for spending cuts to existing programs, a few GOP moderates are entertaining the possibility of a tax increase, and many in the middle want to freeze Bush tax cuts that have yet to take effect.

The resistance suggests that Bush's second term could turn out far rockier and more contentious than his first. One indicator many Republicans are watching to gauge whether Bush is becoming a liability for the party is in Pennsylvania, where Rick Santorum, the No. 3 Republican in the Senate, is trailing state treasurer Bob Casey Jr. by double digits.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/20/AR2005092001704.html

I've seen conflicting news reports on this, such as what percent of Americans are fiscal conservatives (I understand they are all here in Arizona) and how much clout they really have. What bothers me is not the spending of money on relief efforts--that's obviously needed, but rather the existing debt due to tax cuts, the invasion of Iraq, and pork spending in bills such as the highway bill.

In the meantime Bush supporters are accusing Dems of the "big government" spin, while claiming Katrina relief is the conservatives' vision of how to fight the war on poverty. Right. :rolleyes:
 
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Several senior Republicans, speaking on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss strategy publicly, said Tuesday they‘re starting to fear Bush‘s troubles could threaten the GOP‘s standing among voters in next year‘s elections. By an 8-point margin, voters are more likely to call themselves Democrats than Republicans; there was no gap in self-identification a year ago.

http://www.leadingthecharge.com/stories/news-0076759.html [Broken]

There were lots of headlines on newsgoogle, I found the statistic quoted above amazing. I didn't realize party affiliation could change so radically in the course of a year.

Same source:
AP-Ipsos asked half the respondents to rate eight issues in terms of their priorities. The economy and jobs were cited by 25 percent, an 11-point jump since late August.
 
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  • #5
Ivan Seeking
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A quote from Washington Week, tonight.

From a source close to the Bush Admin: " We are now in the post Bush Republican era"

But we still have all of those hypocrites in Congress...
 
  • #6
SOS2008
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I don't see Bush recovering unless things really turn around in Iraq. At the same time, Republicans may swing in upcoming elections (like Dems did regarding terrorism), but I don't see people changing their party affiliation in large number. As for the increased interest in jobs and the economy--high time! These issues were so over-shadowed by fear mongering about terrorism and gay marriage before now (I can't imagine why).
 
  • #7
Ivan Seeking
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pattylou said:
But... but.... but.... he gave me a tax break!

Yes, my brother-in-law had his $600 check stuck to his refrigerator for months. It's so nice to see his eight and five year old kids already supporting their parents. What great kids!
 
  • #8
Ivan Seeking
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Another interesting point:

I mean, all of a sudden what you're looking at is every kid born in this country, every child born in this country is starting life hobbled by part of the national debt that has to be paid off. Do you think the fact that China and these other countries hold 46 percent of it in anyway mutes the United States' criticism of China's trade policies, China's religious persecution, China's abuse --

JIM LEHRER: Do you think it does?

MARK SHIELDS: Of course it does. Of course it does
 
  • #9
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pattylou said:
http://www.leadingthecharge.com/stories/news-0076759.html [Broken]

There were lots of headlines on newsgoogle, I found the statistic quoted above amazing. I didn't realize party affiliation could change so radically in the course of a year.

Same source:

It didn't change radically.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

There are numerous statistics that show the exit-polls had FAR FAR FAR higher democratic votes in the past two presidential elections than the official results demonstrated.

http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/election-fraud.htm [Broken]

In fact there were more voters voting in swing states than the number of eligible voters living in those states.

There are simply an insane amount of voting anomalies that have been absolutely downplayed and ignored by the press.

Sadly, the democratic election process in this nation has been compromised.
 
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  • #10
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pattylou said:
But... but.... but.... he gave me a tax break!

What nonsense!

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/bg1844.cfm [Broken]


Besides do you really advocate taking people's money away by force as a means to an end?

Bush should be cutting spending and freeing up the market from regulations, not taking more money from the people.
 
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  • #11
Ivan Seeking
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...George W. Bush is a big spender. He has never vetoed a spending bill. When Congress serves up a big slab of fat, crackling pork, Mr. Bush responds with one big question: Got any barbecue sauce?[continued]
PEGGY NOONAN - Wall Street Journal
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/
 
  • #12
Gokul43201
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Peegy Noonan !? :eek: Wasn't she papa's speechwriter (and Reagan's before that) ? Why, I remember her singing the praises on GW on Scarborough Country :rolleyes:

Good, for her, I guess !

Domestic discretionary spending - non-defense spending - non-homeland security spending -- has increased.
That's just sickeningly unbelievable ! Does someone have a source or an explanation for this ?
 
  • #13
Ivan Seeking
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Gokul43201 said:
That's just sickeningly unbelievable ! Does someone have a source or an explanation for this ?

He said it again this morning on Meet the Press. :rofl:

He also said that in his darkest moments, he imagines "Bush as some kind of Manchurian Candidate who takes all of his best ideas and ruins them". :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: This is just too strange after listening to all of his excuses made for Bush for five years.
 
  • #14
SOS2008
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Ivan Seeking said:
He said it again this morning on Meet the Press. :rofl:

He also said that in his darkest moments, he imagines "Bush as some kind of Manchurian Candidate who takes all of his best ideas and ruins them". :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: This is just too strange after listening to all of his excuses made for Bush for five years.
Here's another quote from that link:
The Republican (as opposed to conservative) default position when faced with criticism of the Bush administration is: But Kerry would have been worse! ...But saying The Bush administration is a lot better than having Democrats in there is not an answer to criticism, it's a way to squelch it. Which is another Bridge to Nowhere.
We never hear this one in PF do we?
 
  • #15
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SOS2008 said:
Here's another quote from that link:
We never hear this one in PF do we?

Yeah, replace Kerry with Clinton and you have the typical apologist response...
 
  • #16
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Russ's world is collapsing.
 
  • #17
Gokul43201
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Sadly, Russ is only a fiscal conservative...and is almost a social lefty. Too bad Bush is just the opposite.

There's someone else here that's a real social conservative...can't recall who...only remember he wasn't accepting applications from "women of the left".
 
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  • #18
Astronuc
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As for a bridge to nowhere - http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/08/09/bridges/index_np.html [Broken]
A bridge to nowhere Alaska's Gravina Island (population less than 50) will soon be connected to the megalopolis of Ketchikan (pop. 8,000) by a bridge nearly as long as the Golden Gate and higher than the Brooklyn Bridge. Alaska residents can thank Rep. Don Young, who just brought home $941 million worth of bacon.
:rolleyes:

Aug. 9, 2005 | A mess of thorny devil's club and salmonberries, along with an old chicken coop, surrounds the 40-year-old cabin where Mike Sallee grew up and still lives part time on southeast Alaska's Gravina Island. Sallee's cabin is the very definition of remote. Deer routinely visit his front porch, and black bears and wolves live in the woods out back. The 20-mile-long island, home to fewer than 50 people, has no stores, no restaurants and no paved roads. An airport on the island hosts fewer than 10 commercial flights a day.

Yet due to funds in a new transportation bill, which President Bush is scheduled to sign Wednesday, Sallee and his neighbors may soon receive a bridge nearly as long as the Golden Gate Bridge and 80 feet taller than the Brooklyn Bridge. With a $223 million check from the federal government, the bridge will connect Gravina to the bustling Alaskan metropolis of Ketchikan, pop. 8,000.

http://www.taxpayer.net/Transportation/gravinabridge.htm [Broken]
Rep. Don Young (R-AK) is trying to sell America's taxpayers a $315 million "bridge to nowhere" in rural Alaska. As Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, he is in a very good position to get his way. But Rep. Young should be stopped from using his political clout to force federal taxpayers to pay for a bridge that is ridiculous in its scope, unjustified on its merits, and far too expensive for taxpayers to swallow at a time of record federal deficits.

If Rep. Young succeeds, tiny Ketchikan, Alaska, a town with less than 8,000 residents (about 13,000 if the entire county is included) will receive hundreds of millions of federal dollars to build a bridge to Gravina Island (population: 50). This bridge will be nearly as long as the Golden Gate Bridge and taller than the Brooklyn Bridge. :rolleyes:
Road Bill Reflects The Power Of Pork
White House Drops Effort to Rein In Hill
- but isn't that the duty of the president? Checks and balances?
Three years ago, President Bush went to war against congressional pork. His official 2003 budget even featured a color photo of a wind-powered ice sled -- an example of the pet projects and alleged boondoggles he said he would no longer tolerate. :rolleyes:

Yesterday, Bush effectively signed a cease-fire -- critics called it more like a surrender -- in his war on pork. He signed into law a $286 billion transportation measure that contains a record 6,371 pet projects inserted by members of Congress from both parties. I guess Bush is equal opportunity at least.
:biggrin:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081000223.html
Statement of STPP President Anne P. Canby on Enactment of New Federal Transportation Law - http://www.istea.org/

-- It Is Now Up to State & Local Leaders to Deliver Real Travel Options to the Public (August 10, 2005)
:rofl:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reauthorization/safetea.htm
The Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (SAFETEA-LU) was enacted August 10, 2005, as Public Law 109-59. TEA-21 authorizes the Federal surface transportation programs for highways, highway safety, and transit for the 5-year period 2005-2009.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reauthorization/index.htm

========================================
Generals recommend national plan for emergencies
Bush weighs military's role in large disasters
CNN

You mean Homeland Security doesn't have one? On what are they spending those $ billions? Why do we need HS?
SAN ANTONIO, Texas (AP, CNN) -- Military officials told President Bush on Sunday that the U.S. needs a national plan to coordinate search and rescue efforts following natural disasters or terrorist attacks.

Bush said he is interested in whether the Defense Department should take charge in massive national disasters.
Seems to be a slippery slope.
 
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  • #19
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Gokul43201 said:
Sadly, Russ is only a fiscal conservative...and is almost a social lefty. Too bad Bush is just the opposite.

Which is why one might wonder why Russ supports the man!
 
  • #20
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sid_galt said:
What nonsense!

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/bg1844.cfm [Broken]


Besides do you really advocate taking people's money away by force as a means to an end?

I certainly do!!
 
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  • #21
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pattylou said:
I certainly do!!

Then you support robbery and looting.

Are you a communist by any chance?
If you are, I must say, you are very honest in terms of advocating your beliefs.
 
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  • #22
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Yes, I am honest. :)

But if you really believe taxation is the same as looting.... then you validate some of my views of right wingers!

So tell me, if you had a homework assignment asking you to state the differences between taxation and looting, would you be able to come up with anything?
 
  • #23
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sid_galt said:
Are you a communist by any chance?

I don't believe I meet the criteria for communist.

I *do* agree with the maxim: "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."
 
  • #24
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pattylou said:
But if you really believe taxation is the same as looting.... then you validate some of my views of right wingers!
Don't worry. Most right wingers aren't like that.

pattylou said:
So tell me, if you had a homework assignment asking you to state the differences between taxation and looting, would you be able to come up with anything?

Oh yes!

Taxation is legalized looting.
 
  • #25
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LOL. That's the best you can do?
 
  • #26
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pattylou said:
I don't believe I meet the criteria for communist.

I *do* agree with the maxim: "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

You agree with the basic premise of communism. You support using force to violate the rights of men by taking away their property.

I would be interested to know which criteria of communism you do not meet.
 
  • #27
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pattylou said:
LOL. That's the best you can do?

Well, with only one essential difference between them, that is the best I can do.
 
  • #28
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sid_galt said:
You agree with the basic premise of communism. You support using force to violate the rights of men by taking away their property.

Do you recognize that this discussion could become very involved and that you are oversimplifying parties?

I won't have the time to invest in a lengthy discussion of this sort.

I would be interested to know which criteria of communism you do not meet.

I don't recall. From "what are your political leanings" type internet questionnaires, I don't come out communist.

I wouldn't know from those questions which are and aren't directly for and against communism per se, as there are dozens of "parties" that you can end up being assigned to based on your responses.

If you'd like to find such a questionnaire it might be an interesting exercise for various members to take.

And now, to turn the tables: I take it from your response, that you don't believe in taxation at all - even taxation with representation - and therefore don't believe in any social services whatsoever that are federally funded; road upkeep; public schooling; the military. School loans. I take it you believe that only those that can afford education or health care should have it.

Does that sound about right?
 
  • #29
Astronuc
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Taxation is certainly not looting - however, taxation without representation is more or less so.

Paying taxes is part of a moral obligation to support the community - part of a social contract. The community in turn provides support and services that an individual might not otherwise be able to provide for him- or herself, or one's family.

Taxes should not be more than necessary, and if so, place a surplus in the "community chest" as a reserve, just in case of an emergency or unanticipated problem.

Humans (and primates) are territorial, so it is difficult for an individual to go anywhere in the world and live outside a community and its government.

Ideally, we make the best government possible, which should provide for fair and impartial laws, and we obey the laws, which should in theory provide for domestic Tranquility and the general Welfare.
 
  • #30
Ivan Seeking
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Gokul43201 said:
Sadly, Russ is only a fiscal conservative...and is almost a social lefty.

So what you are saying is that there is right, left, and then the other left. :rofl:
 
  • #31
Astronuc
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or three lefts make a right. :biggrin:
 
  • #32
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sid_galt said:
You agree with the basic premise of communism. You support using force to violate the rights of men by taking away their property.

I would be interested to know which criteria of communism you do not meet.
:rofl: You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
  • #33
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Astronuc said:
Taxation is certainly not looting - however, taxation without representation is more or less so.
I'm not getting you here.

Taxation involves telling a man to give money to the government and threatening him with physical force if he does not.

Looting involves telling a man to give money to another person and threatening him with physical force if he does not.
The essentials are the same.

I have no problem if someone voluntarily contributes to the society or the government. But he should not be forced to do so.

Astronuc said:
Paying taxes is part of a moral obligation to support the community - part of a social contract.
You mean if a person wants to deal with civilised people, he has a moral obligation to contribute to a common fund which is spent away on causes he may or may not approve of?

If two civilised persons or a group of persons want to participate in mutual trade or want to live near other civilised persons, how does that impose a moral obligation on them to contribute to the common fund?

Astronuc said:
The community in turn provides support and services that an individual might not otherwise be able to provide for him- or herself, or one's family.

That is only true for a person who is not productive enough. In which case he is living off people who are more productive than him without their consent.

Astronuc said:
Humans (and primates) are territorial, so it is difficult for an individual to go anywhere in the world and live outside a community and its government.

True. But how does that impose on him a moral obligation to give money to the common fund?

I am not advocating that he live alone and apart from everyone. If other people don't want to talk to him, that's their choice. If the person wants to contribute money to the community for charity work or the like or help other people that's his choice.

But what I'm advocating is that he should not be forced to give his money to anyone no matter where he lives. His life and property do not belong to the govt. or the community.

Astronuc said:
Ideally, we make the best government possible, which should provide for fair and impartial laws, and we obey the laws, which should in theory provide for domestic Tranquility and the general Welfare.

Sadly, given the current state of the world, with the govt. getting even bigger and bigger, that is not very likely.
 
  • #34
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pattylou said:
I won't have the time to invest in a lengthy discussion of this sort.

k


pattylou said:
And now, to turn the tables: I take it from your response, that you don't believe in taxation at all - even taxation with representation - and therefore don't believe in any social services whatsoever that are federally funded; road upkeep; public schooling; the military. School loans. I take it you believe that only those that can afford education or health care should have it.

No. I do believe the government should enforce the law, mantain courts, mantain a police force and mantain the military. I do believe the govt. has to make roads to support the military and the police. I am somewhat Jeffersonian on the purpose of the government.

I do not believe that the government should itself violate the code of ethics by appropriating the wealth and property of private citizens.

As to the practicality of my view, if people know that without contributing, they risk running into an anarchy, they will contribute more than you can think. If they can contribute 600 million dollars for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, they'll contribute much more for their personal security.

Most of the revenue these days is wasted anyway in welfare, spewing out money to other countries and to the UN, funding useless projects and putting unnecessary restrictions on the market so that the Chinese companies can beat the crap out of US companies and give us a trillion dollar deficit.
 
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  • #35
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sid_galt said:
No. I do believe the government should enforce the law, mantain courts, mantain a police force and mantain the military. I do believe the govt. has to make roads to support the military and the police. I am somewhat Jeffersonian on the purpose of the government.

Personally, I think that the military should at least partially be funded by selling military technology to be adapted to civilian use. Roads can largely be built and maintained through user fees and public authorities, at least the major highways and bridges. It seems like the government has to enact some amount of taxation, at least on services it renders (like stamps, for instance) and sales taxes. It's the income tax and property tax that gets me. Many of my ancestors lived in this country for thousands of years before there ever was a United States. What right does the government have to claim the land for itself and tell us we now have to pay to live on it? My great-great grandfather built his house out in California City before California was even part of the United States. What is the theory here? That by remaining on his own property, in the house that he built, on the land that he worked, he consented to being governed by and giving over his land to the US? Did his children and grandchildren consent to the ridiculous property tax hikes that California went through before Prop 13? I don't see how this is substantially different from the King coming in and claiming divinely ordained lordship over you, exacting tribute and promising to protect you from other kings in return.
 

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