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Everything is about God

  1. May 27, 2005 #1
    I think that by the title of this thread I have exposed myself. I believe in God. That aside, let me point out the obvious: Science, mathematics, philosophy and any progression made in any or all of the subjects never cease to question God as to say He does or does not exist. All throughtout the ages, fool or wise, we have all come to examine the same evidences about whether or not God exists regardless of how advance we get. The universe has been proven to be irreducibly complex and the more we progress, the more evident this becomes. After each discovery a man will say, "We have come close to unlocking the secrets" and again, "It's just a matter of time" Yet the there is at least two constants that forever remain; the wise and the foolish.

    If God exists and He is given the proper attributes of deity then truly there is nothing else other than the persuit to prove or disprove Him. If technological, physiological, pshychological and all logical forms have taken such an advancement then why do we continue to ask the same questions and reduntantly receive the same answers? You may say that religion is an ancient relic of the past to appease the ignorant minds of a pitiful existence that incessantly interferes with the progression of man in his search for immortatily. Maybe it's the belief in God that keeps man from consuming himself in the deception that he can cheat death. Progression while denying God is the persuit for immortality without the "dictatorship" of God. If it's not about God then what is it about?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. May 27, 2005 #2
    To summarize your point I get this out of it - because we have not made any advancements that completely prove or disprove God, whether it be technological or philisophical, then everything must be about God or this pursuit of answering "the God question".

    Hmmm. This is an interesting view I have never considered. You are saying basically that we all live, breathe, and die for the pursuit of finding or disproving God. Although I can see how you would say this, I disagree because of some of your premises.

    Why would you say that we only exist to find the truth about God? Do you truly believe that none of us do anything without another motive?

    This kind of makes me think of Freud, saying that every action we do has an underlying sexual meaning to it.
     
  4. May 27, 2005 #3
    Everything else.
     
  5. May 28, 2005 #4
    As I have said in my first post, If you assign God his proper attributes of deity then there doesn't leave room for anything else. God who is existance, who made all things has to be the center of all things. I don't believe that God is "energy" like something you'll see in Star Wars; something that a mortal man, who knows neither how he came to be or how he will end, can attempt to manipulate. Without God there can be nothing, though some may argue that the idea of a god is rediculous but it is more reasonable to think that something came out of nothing. Why do I think there can be no other motive? Because God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. There is nowhere you can go where He is not. He is the sustainer of the place or the thing. When Moses said to God, "Who should I say that You are?", He replied, "I AM that I AM" If I would then come to the inevitable conclusion that since God is all of these things then the motive is not just to prove or disprove God because the answer to that is already woven within our very consciousness. The motive would then be to either obey Him or rebel against Him. To prove and work for Him would be to obey, and to deny, disprove or ignore would be to rebel against Him. Crag says, "everything else" and as much as that might make sense to an atheist, that would be open rebellion against Him.
     
  6. May 29, 2005 #5
    "If God exists"

    You're basing your entire argument here on the assumption that God exists, something still not proven/disproven. It's shaky grounds to support this claim. For my argument I just have to say "If god doesn't exist, then everything we do and think has to be about something besides God" which would also be logically true.
     
  7. May 29, 2005 #6
    That is true. God can neither be proven or disproven. God cannot be put into a test tube. You cannot create an experiment that would reveal God and any attempt to do so would be wasted efforts in hopes to bring the uncontainable down to a dissectable, finite form. If it were that God did not exist, or to say it more appropriately, if an individual believed that God did not exist, then that person would live there life in spite of God and in contradiction to His existance. But when I say, "God", this term cannot be corelated to anything else but the infinite because when we think "God" we think the one(or the "is") with infinite power or the Almighty. So God can't be mistaken for a purple unicorn. Whether or not you're an atheist or something of the sort and believe that when you die it's to the abysmal of non-existance for you, though we cannot fathom it, the concept of eternity is still there. For instance, I have spoken with atheist's who believe that the universe is infinite. I ask why and the answer is sometimes, "I don't know" or something like, "It has to be" If we believe it's infinite it is because we have a concept of eternity and If we believe it has an end or a limit then we must come to the inevitable conclusion that something or someone had to put it there because what is on the outside of the so-called "end" or "limit"? Why? Because eternity is in our being.

    So even when confronted with God and this person says, "I don't believe in God", they live there life in manner X because of how they feel about God. And to cover all bases, if someone said, "I don't care if he exist's or not. I do X because that's just what I want to do." this person has already clearly stated why he does what he does: he doesn't care so he lives in a manner that cares not about God. So long as this world continues the way it is there will always be people who say the do or not believe in God or doesn't care either way about God. They will say I believe in God because of X and I don't believe in God because of Y and I don't care about God because X and Y has already been taken. Therefore I have come to say EVERYTHING is about God.
     
  8. May 29, 2005 #7

    cronxeh

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    well if god created the universe and people as elements of that universe that would discover both the universe and god, then what can you tell me about god? who does god think he is to play 'universe' with us?

    what gives you the thought, based on the information around you, that its part of a script, a fate as you would call it, to follow god's will?

    the idea of god is not something that can be proven or disproven by mathematics. its not even in the scope of philosophy - as a matter of fact, there is no subject in the world (certainly not theology) that can prove or disprove god's existance as well as purpose of the universe.
     
  9. May 29, 2005 #8
    My post was just about the general existance of God, but for a simple answer, God thinks he's God. I don't think the moderators would approve of me posting my theological beliefs about God. But if I may push the envelope a bit, I believe God thinks He is the Father of all things and will reject those who willingly choose to divorce Him.

    The information in the world around me tells me to rationalize everything that happens in the world in a natural way, essentially denying a higher purpose for everything. Therefore I reject this world and the will it want's me to follow because the will of this world is corrupt. I don't believe that a script was written, period. I believe a script was written according to what He already knew we would do. I believe we have a will, but will as we might we cannot break God's ultimately will. We can will against Him and fail, or will what He wills and agree that He is God.

    Well if God is not philosphical, theological, mathematical, or logical, then I must contend that your existance is also just the same. But you and I do exist, and know we exist, and I also know that I did not cause myself to exist so I conclude that an intelligent higher power has caused me to exist. I am intelligent but I just can't come to bring myself to believe that I am more intelligent than my creator.
     
  10. May 29, 2005 #9

    cronxeh

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    your logic fails on every single quote you replied to, and not only that, you seem to have missed the question and evaded the answer i've been looking for

    as a matter of fact the only answer i was expecting is none whatsoever

    if you claim to not be part of the corrupt world and only want to be part of god's domain - you contradicting with your first post, where you clearly indicated that everything was god's, including the ways and the societies and the evil and the thought process

    furthermore, you claim to be able to understand what god would and wont do, and what god is and what god isnt - you seem to have an image of god that you would like, rather then what the reality or supernatural reality would depict it to be. if i dug it deeper, past the scope of the forum rules, we would discover that you dont hold god to be evil, your image of god -your creator- is of something that is not only bigger than life, but also something that only has select few properties and somehow the 'other' properties are kept at bay - or perhaps in some anti-god creature which you subconsciously claim doesnt exist.
     
  11. May 30, 2005 #10
    I said everything is about God and God sustains everything, not God is everything; He has a hand in everything because if He did not, the thing would not exist. I did not say I am not part of this corrupt world but reject what the world says, that I must embrace the corruptibility of it because the world says that if is not corruptible(Changeable, alterable, breakable...), it's not real. All things do belong to God. Nowhere did I indicate that God was evil, but that God who owns all things has the control to punish evil. Evil itself does not have substance, it is the darkness. We don't "see" the darkness but we see the light, wherever the light is not, that is darkness. It is His creation that choose to do evil, that is, to do something apart from God's will.

    If it was about me and what I wanted God to be then I would choose to be my own god. If it was about me then I could do nothing wrong, all things could be justified, rationlized, and unaccounted for.

    You make some pretty fantastic claims about me. You must have figured me out to a science. It's very arrogant of you to suggest that your logic was so flawless in your response to me that you expected NO answer at all. By saying that you expect no answer is because you seem to think that you masterfully backed my reasoning into a corner. Also, I did not evade your question but rather, you attempted to force me to answer in a way that only makes natural sense. If I answered you in any other way, then I would have contradicted myself. Remember what you also said, "God can neither be proven nor disproven"? Yet you asked me to give a natural answer to a supernatural question.

    I don't know the details of your beliefs, but there are many that believe that we don't really have a free will. A natural answer to a "fate" question would be thus: That we are shaped by an inumberable amount of variables in society that mold us and that we make "choices" based on what our eviroment has told us to believe, as if we are just highly programmed machines, doing nothing more then cruching numbers. If this is true then everything started at the Big bang, and this action caused that reaction and so forth and so forth, so your existance is just a mathematical reaction to some other action. If it were possible to calculate all these things then the future would be nothing more than an inevitable result of action and reaction, cause and effect.

    I don't believe that God is bigger than life, I believe that God is life. God is not like a man. When atheists think of God they think of a man as God and what a man would do in God's position. So they think of themselves as God and conclude that the idea of God is preposterous. Attempting to imagine omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence is futile. God did not come to be like a man came to be, God is.
     
  12. May 30, 2005 #11
    I'm an atheist and I think about God all the time, not as a man, but as God.

    But anyway, I think this thread is getting off topic. It isn't about the proof of God, it's about "everything is about God".

    I think my problem with your logic lies with what you define "about" to mean. When you say "everything is about God" because God created everything, you are saying "about" to roughly mean "created" or "existing because of". And if that is your definition, then yes, I would agree with you. :)

    However, just to pose a counterexample, because we all love debating, how is me going to get some breakfast about God. Trust me, at 7 'oclock in the morning, I have no shred about God in my mind, only food - and a lot of coffee. So when I am doing my simple act of eating, how is this about God? Sure if God exists than I am doing all of this because of Him/Her, but am I consciously thinking about God? Am I doing this for God?

    My answer is no.

    Jameson
     
  13. May 31, 2005 #12
    my eye is "about" seeing, my vision is "about" me knowing what is around me, my knowledge of what is around me is "about" me interacting with the environment and other me's (people), my interaction with the invironment and other people is "about"... um, me wanting to interact with the environment and other people? my desire to interact is "about"... um...

    purpose purpose purpose purpose purpose purpose purpose purpose... umm... good thing I can choose to not spend my time thinking about these things when I want. I think the "God is redundant thread" covers this stuff pretty well.

    "However, just to pose a counterexample, because we all love debating, how is me going to get some breakfast about God. Trust me, at 7 'oclock in the morning, I have no shred about God in my mind, only food - and a lot of coffee. So when I am doing my simple act of eating, how is this about God? Sure if God exists than I am doing all of this because of Him/Her, but am I consciously thinking about God? Am I doing this for God?" - Jameson

    nice, but incomplete. Is a preacher aware of doing everything for God at every moment of his/her life? no, but that doesn't mean that he/she doesn't. Is a football player thinking "this is gonna be really great what I'm about to do for god" when he is running as fast as he can while avoiding opposing team members in an effort to catch the football in the n-zone? no, you can't say such a thing, but if you're satisfied with your answer, kudos.
     
  14. May 31, 2005 #13

    cronxeh

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    and yet you continue to eloquently discuss the nature of god, without giving a reason behind your claims

    what motivated you to post this thread? was it for god/about god? or was it to try to see the different responses you would get

    what was the reason for you to post that everything is not only about god, but that god exists?

    what particular source or event, or perhaps a logical hypothesis of incompleteness in the world made you say there is a 'supernatural' - that is something beyond the realm of our world.

    what logic has it that supernatural not only exists but has an influence over the natural?
     
  15. May 31, 2005 #14
    1. Nobody can give reason either way.

    2. I don't know, I guess I wanted to see responses, and try to reason the main idea of the thread through. I could have just reasoned to myself, but sometimes I think through the keyboard.

    3. did I say that God exists? I just said that Jameson's counterexample is incomplete.

    4.see number 3. also, this topic was touched on in the god is redundant thread, so I merely referred him there, in that thread I never proclaimed that God exists, but our conception of God does exist. You're putting words in my mouth.

    5.see number 4. But if you want to get down to it, I would say that if God exists, then he/she/it created the laws of nature (including evolution, and even the evolution of this conversation), so it goes without saying that God would have influence.

    If you really think that everything must have a reason to occur, then what is your purpose in attacking me? what is your purpose even? how are you so logical? if you don't mind me asking. what is the purpose of the universe? what is the reason for it to exist? because it would make no differance to us if it didn't right? My reason for asking is simple curiosity. I want to peer in your mind and see what you think, not to shoot you down right away, but to consider what you have to say and maybe learn something.
     
  16. May 31, 2005 #15
    Honestly, I like debating these things. I'm trying to quit smoking, so to take my mind off of a cig, I went to this forum. When I saw a thread called "Everything is about God" I just had to check it out and open pandoras box. There are always cool people talking about wacky things on this site.
     
  17. May 31, 2005 #16
    All of the above cronxeh; I did it for God, about God, and for the responses I get. I see a lot of talk(not a bad thing) about things we will never understand, nor can we because we are mortal and finite.

    I used to be an atheist and I would have told you then that I never thought about God. I believe in God now, and so looking back in retrospect I can see that what I was doing I did in spite of God, knowing He exists, and doing what I did to show my distaste for Him and in my ultimate act of contempt, deny Him. I didn't believe in God but when I was full of wrath I did. When I was full of curses I charged Him with all of them. I would have never admitted that even to myself but I know it to be true now.

    How many have been so angry that he looks to the sky, shakes his fist and curses God to His face, just because somebody needs to know your anger? Even if you don't believe, it's relieving to think that God heard your outbursts.

    How can anybody discuss God without discussing His nature? I stick by my claim that everything is about God because you cannot come to any philosphical argument or science or anything and expect to dig deep within and not ask, "What about God?"

    I think that the incompleteness of this world is very evident. The death rate continues to be one per person and destruction is neverending. We have an idea of completeness, of perfection, of holiness, yet none of them takes form. "well that's just the course of nature...", and that's my point. That is the course of this world, and if there were nothing more than this world and the corruption it produces, then where would this idea of perfection, of wholeness come from? Wouldn't my thoughts simply say, "That's just the way it is" and think nothing else? But they don't, mine do not, and yours do not or else we would not be discussing this. If I was nothing more than a product of nature, then wouldn't my mind be just the same as a programmed computer? "2+2=4", say's the calculator because that's what we know to be true. Wouldn't my mind also then say, "Birth+time=death" or more accurately, "cease to exits because I see them no more"? Wouldn't it be just that absolute and no questions asked? But it doesn't. My mind believes, regardless of what this world tells me, that I am more than just walking flesh. Though I do not understand it, I still feel eternity and that must mean something. I must believe that perfection comes from a higher plane of existance because I don't see it here. There must be something wrong with this place. I believe that to accept and embrace this world in how it exists now is to embrace death and corruption. Such a mind deny's God, it's only "natural". Such a mind believes that the universe is an endless cycle of death and rebirth, yet he still believes that it is endless; a mind that rejects life without corruption. As if the universe is just a long inhale and exhale, inhale and exhale.

    "I'm an atheist and I think about God all the time, not as a man, but as God." -Jameson

    Truly Jameson, if you don't see a contradiction in this, I don't know what you do see. Please, don't take offense in that because I didn't say that sarcastically. Everyone knows that God exists, but not all choose to honor Him as God. For something to be about God he must first exist before it being about Him, so I guess the two are intertwined. But this is the topic, that because we can't prove Him by confining Him in what we can experiment on and we can't disprove Him because we can't find any proof to His nonexistance because our existance demands a creative existance to cause us to exist, it's about Him because both sides continue to persue both agendas. And yes, I argue that even the simple things like food and coffee is about God. To eat food and drink coffee you would do so because you are hungry, tired or whatever. In not thanking God for what He created and provided for your nourishment, you take Him for granted and rebel against Him and did so in spite of Him. Maybe you think I'm splitting hairs but I will say again that there is nowhere you can go that God is not and nothing you have that God did not create.

    And yes, this thread will probably end just as all the others do. After the many circular arguments we will eventually tire of it. But it won't take long for another one to come up because we just can't escape it, thus I have said everything is about God. Of course these things are always fun to participate in, it feels good to convey your thoughts even if it gates heated.
     
  18. May 31, 2005 #17
    No they don't actually. People arn't born with the knowledge of god, and there are of course atheists.

    Your right there.

    Why should we need to prove what humans hypothetically created? Why on earth should we believe anything anthropomorphically without any evidence whatsoever?
     
  19. May 31, 2005 #18
    Jonny trigonometry:
    I see your point, but I would not call my answer incomplete and I am content with it. The title of this thread is "EVERYTHING is about God", not most of everything or some of everything is about God. I provided a simple example of something that in no way was "about" God, using about in a conventional definition.

    Jameson
     
  20. May 31, 2005 #19
    Hmmm... dude, I appreciate you trying to save me, but honestly you have an agenda. All you seem to want to do this thread is prove God's existense or say that those who do not recognize it can't "see" anything. I really do not feel like debating you on either, but I'll stick to the thread.

    Like I said earlier and will not say again after this- even if there is a God that created the whole universe, that does not mean everything is about Him/Her. I am able to do all of these things because of God, but that does not mean everything is about God. And, just because God is everywhere, does not mean my breakfast is about Him/Her.

    You are really pushing your agenda, which is fine, but if you want to debate at least rename the forum to "God's existense and how those idiots who will burn in Hell don't see it."

    Jameson
     
  21. May 31, 2005 #20

    DM

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    And just who distinguishes “the wise and the foolish”?

    I’m not entirely sure this is true in the eyes of science. That view is postulated from those that would like to be in total control of their lives and more importantly who fear death.

    It’s about survival. Are you aware of the inequities and indictments that this world exudes? Have you ever feasted your eyes on children crying for food? Adolescents working to help feed their family instead of pampering themselves in holidays and forums like we do? Where on earth do their opportunities lie?

    I’m sorry to say it but you’re awfully biased.

    Where did God came from?

    Now you’re talking. That is inevitably life. You can’t reject it by the way, you can’t simply handle it without believing in a God.

    The existance in humans is philosphical, theological, mathematical, and logical in the hands of science. Science is not abstract like deities are, it is a credible source and with its absence none of what we see would exist. A prime example is technology and medicine, without the likes of mathematics, physics, biology and chemistry our standard of living would be fraught with rudimentary ways of living. Disease would have probably made us extinct by now.

    Awful ambiguity there. So just because I believe in God because of X or Y, and vice versa, “Everything is about God”? That is not rationalising life as it is.
     
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