Fake NASA moon landing?

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  • Thread starter Ian
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  • #26
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Schrodinger's Dog said:
The most convincing thing to me is of all the 100's of people who worked for NASA during the three moon landings, no ones come forward yet to uncover the sham.
My grandfather was one of the them.He was there when the lunched the rockets(I think) and he's not someone that gets involed in conspricay..
 
  • #28
FredGarvin
Science Advisor
5,066
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ZapperZ said:
http://www.clavius.org/

Can't get any more meticulous than this.

Zz.
I like that site very much. Thanks for the link.
 
  • #29
Why is there so much fuss about whether we really went to the moon? You could come up with some grand conspiracy theory with vacuum chamber sets and ways to manipulate film, but at the end of the day, it would be a WHOLE lot cheaper and far easier just to go to the moon rather than fake it. We went to the moon. period.
 
  • #30
Lies are always easier to believe than the truth, especially very big ones.

Would it not have been possible to have pre-recorded the whole affair in for arguments sake in area 51 then play the tape at the allotted time?

They could have sent up real rockets that would fly out of sight then break up and then fall back down to earth over the ocean?

All the reported Apollo radio transmissions were allegedly broadcast from Washington DC.

I am an idiot but thing I know for sure is.

1. It is very easy to fake things on TV however convincing they may seem.

2. The people in power have a tendency to tell us what ever suit them at the time.

3. NASA has stopped going to the moon and has no plans to go back there.

4. I know for sure 100% in 1969 NASA/US Gov did have the technology to fake the moon landings. I can not say with absolute certainty they did go there.

5. The Russian that according to even NASA sources were ahead of the Americans in rocketry during the 1960s could not do it.

6. People will believe just about any old rubbish as long as it suits them to do so.

One thing I would like to see is the telemetric data. With particular interest to the moon take off and the rendezvous with Luna orbiter.
 
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  • #31
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0
Thousands of people were involved from all over the country and in fact the world when you consider the radio relay stations and other such support. As has been said, considering the effort involved not only to fake all aspects of the mission (launches, film, photos, video including the dust falling in a vacuum, mirrors for laser ranging from Earth, etc....) but also the effort to cover it up for 30+ years, it would have been FAR more difficult to fake it all than to have actually done it. Many good sites are listed here in this thread, that Clavius site is one of the best I've ever seen on debunking the conspiracy nuts. Bravo!

Isn't lunacy such a great word, especially considering it's origins.

3. NASA has stopped going to the moon and has no plans to go back there
Do you live in a cave? http://exploration.nasa.gov/ [Broken]

So I have one question. When we go back to the moon to get our flags left there on the moon's surface, will all of the conspiracy theorists provide us with a convenient new place to plant them? :wink:
 
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  • #32
Mech_Engineer
Science Advisor
Gold Member
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Ouch, I get a headache just reading your post. :yuck:

totalidiot said:
Lies are always easier to believe than the truth, especially very big ones.
Such as?

totalidiot said:
Would it not have been possible to have pre-recorded the whole affair in for arguments sake in area 51 then play the tape at the allotted time?
With the number of people recieving the transmissions accross the world, as it rotated, the only way to "fake" it would have been to send a drone around the moon. Is it really such a leap to realize sending a self-guided robotic drone is just as difficult as sending men?

totalidiot said:
They could have sent up real rockets that would fly out of sight then break up and then fall back down to earth over the ocean?
And yet, we have proof that they were in space. So this argument is ungrounded and frivalous.

totalidiot said:
All the reported Apollo radio transmissions were allegedly broadcast from Washington DC.
Allegedly? Why would you broadcast from D.C instead of Houston? There are no satellite dishes big enough in D.C.! It's stupid to think that the "corrupt beauracrats" are too lazy to walk too far from the White House, so it must be transmitted from close to the "center of coruption." What about how the transmissions were received by people the world over (even while D.C. was on the other side of the planet, BTW)? Is there some "reflector dome" encompassing the entire planet? Gimme a break...

totalidiot said:
I am an idiot but thing I know for sure is.
Good, now I didn't have to say it. Know thy self.

totalidiot said:
1. It is very easy to fake things on TV however convincing they may seem.
Really? Have you SEEN the special effects on T.V. from the 60's and 70's? I would love to see ONE example of "special effects" that was so effective it can't be discerned from actual life. Even today with supercomputer render farms, the special effects are able to be seen with a little common sense, physics knowledge, and a zoom.

totalidiot said:
2. The people in power have a tendency to tell us what ever suit them at the time.
Even if I don't believe this, the fact is that EVERYONE that worked on the Apollo missions says the same thing, not just the people in power. What about the scientists at NASA that use actual scientific proof and data to show that we did go to the moon? This is just a fear of government.

totalidiot said:
3. NASA has stopped going to the moon and has no plans to go back there.
They DO have plans to go back. I find you wording interesting: "NASA has stopped going to the moon..." as in, they WERE going to the moon, and they stopped. Do you really believe the nonsense you are blurting?

totalidiot said:
4. I know for sure 100% in 1969 NASA/US Gov did have the technology to fake the moon landings. I can not say with absolute certainty they did go there.
Man, I would like some examples of that! 100% sure?! What about a vacuum chamber double or quadruple the size of a warehouse? Computing ability? Orbiting satellites to fake moon signals? PLEASE... The fact that you are "100% sure" tells me you have purposely avoided looking at the scientific facts, and the proof that we did land there. This is disturbing to me.

totalidiot said:
5. The Russian that according to even NASA sources were ahead of the Americans in rocketry during the 1960s could not do it.
There are reasons for that other than the fact that it's "impossible." 'Nuff said. Besides, it's interesting you bring up Russia, because you KNOW they were carefully watching our space program. They would have watched the signals coming from the ships, the designs coming out of NASA. If there was some big conspiracy they would have found it, and launched a huge propoganda campaign. The fact that the Soviet Russians KNOW we went to the moon is very telling.

totalidiot said:
6. People will believe just about any old rubbish as long as it suits them to do so.
LOL, it's actually quite ironic that you would say that, as you are a walking, talking proof of concept.

totalidiot said:
One thing I would like to see is the telemetric data. With particular interest to the moon take off and the rendezvous with Luna orbiter.
Well, it seems that telemetric data would be the EASIEST to fake, it's just a spreadsheet of numbers! You are obviously looking in the wrong places for supposed proof of your theories. You might as well give up while you're behind, there certainly won't be any catching up happening here!
 
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  • #33
goavs4,
The theory is that they duped the people working at NASA too. Someone at NASA may be talking about going to the moon. They may even have the technology now. Let's wait and see.

Mech_Engineer,
Big lies such as the resurrection of Christ or any other so called miracles that many people defended as vehemently as you do the moon landings.
The only point I was interested in hearing an argument for was the Luna module take off and rendezvous with the orbiter, this is the part I find very hard to believe.
This point was just brushed off, was this because you can not provide a satisfactory answer?
Do you think it was possible that they sent up an unmanned Luna orbiter and the rest was faked?
That would satisfy most of the sceptics and believers alike.
Put that in your rocket motor and smoke it.
 
  • #34
Pengwuino
Gold Member
4,989
16
Totalidiot,

Did you know that you're the only person in your town? It's true! Everyone else is a robot. Why do i know its true and that you're in denial?

1. It is very easy to fake things to people in real life if you surround them with the lie

2. You will probably believe this because its easy for you to believe

3. aww i cant make up a funny yet equal comparison for this one

4. The technology to create a virtual world with robots exists. I cannot say for certain everyone in your life is not a robot

5. You're friends don't believe they're robots and they don't believe the technology to be robots exists.

6. You just don't believe you're surrounded by robots because it doesn't suit you

Thus, using similar logic, i declare that you have no convincing evidence that everyone around you is not a robot. Silly? Same logic...

Maybe if you're logic even had any connection to the actual mission. You're basically saying "well it was POSSIBLE so it had to have happened! Only people who deny the common view are right simply because they deny it", etc etc. I think you're brain has fallen out according to Feynman.
 
  • #35
Rach3
totalidiot said:
The only point I was interested in hearing an argument for was the Luna module take off and rendezvous with the orbiter, this is the part I find very hard to believe.
This point was just brushed off, was this because you can not provide a satisfactory answer?
You could have followed ZapperZ's excellent link in post #27. See -

http://www.clavius.org/techengine.html (rocket engines)
http://www.clavius.org/techlmstab.html (stability)
http://www.clavius.org/techlltv.html (training vehicle on earth))
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1971-008C (Apollo 14 Lunar module)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Module (v. nice tables, links)

If you're skeptical about order-of-magnitude issues, play around with the numbers from NASA's description and an introductory physics text.

Any specific questions?

Do you think it was possible that they sent up an unmanned Luna orbiter and the rest was faked?
That would satisfy most of the sceptics and believers alike.
No; there's overwhelming evidence that the human explorers did in fact land on the surface (not least of which the mirrors they left behind). Going from lunar orbit to the surface and back, is a much easier task than leaving earth's gravity, and reentering earth's atmosphere. - so why the heck wouldn't they?
 
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  • #36
russ_watters
Mentor
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totalidiot said:
Lies are always easier to believe than the truth, especially very big ones.
Why? That sounds like a meaningless cliche to me.
Would it not have been possible to have pre-recorded the whole affair in for arguments sake in area 51 then play the tape at the allotted time?
With technology available in 1969? Absolutely not. You did see Star Wars, right...? That was made in 1974 and pioneered some of the technologies that would have been required to fake the moon landings. And even then, you can tell it is fake.
They could have sent up real rockets that would fly out of sight then break up and then fall back down to earth over the ocean?
Sure, but so what? Just because it is possible doesn't mean they did it. What is easier to believe now? It looks like to you it is easier to believe people lied than that they (and "they" is several hundred thousand people, btw) than that they didn't.
All the reported Apollo radio transmissions were allegedly broadcast from Washington DC.
That is not possible. It is easy for someone who cares to tell the difference. Ie, the Soviets.
I am an idiot but thing I know for sure is.

1. It is very easy to fake things on TV however convincing they may seem.
Today maybe, but in 1969 the technology was simply not available.
2. The people in power have a tendency to tell us what ever suit them at the time.
That isn't an argument.
3. NASA has stopped going to the moon and has no plans to go back there.
True. So what?
4. I know for sure 100% in 1969 NASA/US Gov did have the technology to fake the moon landings. I can not say with absolute certainty they did go there.
You are wrong. The technology did not exist to fake the moon landings.
5. The Russian that according to even NASA sources were ahead of the Americans in rocketry during the 1960s could not do it.
That's true, but there is a pretty good reason why we beat them: the single vs multiple stage lander approach. Their approach required a rocket several times the size of ours and they were unable to do it.
6. People will believe just about any old rubbish as long as it suits them to do so.
Clearly you are demonstrating that right now.
One thing I would like to see is the telemetric data. With particular interest to the moon take off and the rendezvous with Luna orbiter.
There are millions of pages of data if you care to wade through them....
 
  • #37
russ_watters
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Mech_Engineer said:
Man, I would like some examples of that! 100% sure?! What about a vacuum chamber double or quadruple the size of a warehouse?
Not good enough: the lunar rovers had cameras on them and drove several km.
 
  • #38
russ_watters
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totalidiot said:
goavs4,
The theory is that they duped the people working at NASA too. Someone at NASA may be talking about going to the moon.
Huh? The people at NASA thought they were going to the moon, but they weren't? I met Jim Lovell. He doesn't seem like a guy who you could dupe into thinking he was on the moon when he wasn't. :rolleyes:
The only point I was interested in hearing an argument for was the Luna module take off and rendezvous with the orbiter, this is the part I find very hard to believe.
This point was just brushed off, was this because you can not provide a satisfactory answer?
Dear lord - just saying it is hard to believe is not a question. What is it that you want to know about it? Rendesvous in space was first done with Gemini 8 and isn't all that hard.
Do you think it was possible that they sent up an unmanned Luna orbiter and the rest was faked?
No.
 
  • #39
33
0
totalidiot said:
goavs4,
The theory is that they duped the people working at NASA too. Someone at NASA may be talking about going to the moon. They may even have the technology now. Let's wait and see.

Mech_Engineer,
Big lies such as the resurrection of Christ or any other so called miracles that many people defended as vehemently as you do the moon landings.
The only point I was interested in hearing an argument for was the Luna module take off and rendezvous with the orbiter, this is the part I find very hard to believe.
This point was just brushed off, was this because you can not provide a satisfactory answer?
Do you think it was possible that they sent up an unmanned Luna orbiter and the rest was faked?
That would satisfy most of the sceptics and believers alike.
Put that in your rocket motor and smoke it.
Well I've met dozens of NASA people who would be interested to hear that they have been living a lie for over 30 years, including one of my former college professors who worked at JSC through Apollo, Skylab, Shuttle and ISS. I am sure he would be fascinated to hear how all of those mission plans, GN&C algorithms and control laws he wrote were all part of a grand scheme and his whole career was a lie. I mean, he got his experience planning fake Apollo missions yet miraculously when he applied these same principles, algorithms, and systems to later vehicles it all magically worked in the real world. That is unless of course you are implying all NASA missions from day one have been faked.

How about the technological innovation resulting from Apollo? That sort of thing is driven by real world problems, tests, analysis and solutions not imaginary problems and fake missions. All of this new technology was developed to support fake missions and none of the capability actually existed? Do you know how asinine that sounds? Have you ever worked on a real engineering problem and tried to do it completely on paper with no reference or ability to test a theory in practice? Frankly, it's impossible, pretty pictures and back of the envelope calculations are fun but the nitty gritty is in the details by actually building and testing real functional systems and integrating them together. That's where you discover all the things you didn't think of and where the innovation comes in to overcome obstacles and find solutions, many times in the form of a new technology or practice. The amount of new technology and discovery across all fields of engineering as a result of Apollo was so vast only a person with no actual experience would claim people spent dozens of years working on imaginary problems and developing solutions to imaginary missions and faked scenarios. I'm not knocking you man, I just think you need to actually have had some experience before you dismiss so much out of hand. The scale and evidence is so overwhelming. This was a gigantic multi-billion dollar program spanning the globe with impacts felt deeply 30 years after the fact, the implication that this was all the result of people being duped on a grand scale yet somehow they still invented and developed innovative technologies that later worked in practice is just goofy.

As far as what the plans are for future missions did you miss the whole Exploration speech Dubya had broadcast around the world a couple of years ago? Someone at NASA may be talking about going to the moon? Are you kidding me? Either read the copious amounts of information in the link I provided about the huge undertaking already well underway, or if you are too lazy, ask away. I'd me more than happy to fill you in.

No one brushed your question off, you are ignoring the huge amount of rebuttal provided at length in the links posted. Check out Rach3's post who took the time to outline where you can find you answers since you won't look in the links provided for yourself. There is more than enough detail there concerning lunar ascent and rendezvous. Read through it and work it out yourself, no one is going to hold your hand and lead you through it here, those people created that site for a reason. If you don't understand something then ask, we will help you through it.

I don't get your point about the lunar ascent anyway, that part is a cake walk compared to a multiple stage rocket ascending through Earth's atmosphere and gravity, orbit insertion, separation and docking and performing a burn to get into a lunar transfer orbit. Launching in 1/6th the gravity with no atmosphere or staging is basic rocketry compared to that. The only hard part is insuring that the thrust vector for the ascent burn passes through your cm so you don't have any off-axis effects. Even then, you won't be perfect and the lunar ascent module had gimble system AND an RCS system to allow for minor corrections in attitude to compensate which was all controlled and compensated for in realtime by the flight computer onboard.

If you want to present valid arguments and questions fine but don't just postulate "That's hard to believe" and expect someone to outline a solution for you. Look at the evidence yourself, try to understand it and if you have any difficulty ask a specific question or questions and people will provide answers as best they can. I would really suggest you start at that site Rach3 references above, it's got a lot of good information not to mention references of where the information came from so you can track it all down yourself if you so desire.
 
  • #40
Ivan Seeking
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
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totalidiot said:
Lies are always easier to believe than the truth, especially very big ones.

Would it not have been possible to have pre-recorded the whole affair in for arguments sake in area 51 then play the tape at the allotted time?

They could have sent up real rockets that would fly out of sight then break up and then fall back down to earth over the ocean?

All the reported Apollo radio transmissions were allegedly broadcast from Washington DC.

I am an idiot but thing I know for sure is.

1. It is very easy to fake things on TV however convincing they may seem.

2. The people in power have a tendency to tell us what ever suit them at the time.

3. NASA has stopped going to the moon and has no plans to go back there.

4. I know for sure 100% in 1969 NASA/US Gov did have the technology to fake the moon landings. I can not say with absolute certainty they did go there.

5. The Russian that according to even NASA sources were ahead of the Americans in rocketry during the 1960s could not do it.

6. People will believe just about any old rubbish as long as it suits them to do so.

One thing I would like to see is the telemetric data. With particular interest to the moon take off and the rendezvous with Luna orbiter.
None of this supports the claim of a conspiracy.

Since we are now arguing for a conspiracy because and only because it might be possible to imagine in the most extreme sense [and I don't even believe that], we're done.
 

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