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Famous Hoover disc quote debunked: Ivan Seeking

  1. Oct 15, 2003 #1

    Ivan Seeking

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    Famous Hoover "disc" quote debunked: Ivan Seeking

    On television and in most of the current Roswell literature, this quote is often cited as evidence that Hoover had a continuing interest in the Roswell disc and the "other discs recovered". Here, thanks to some skeptical prodding by Zoobyshoe, it is shown that Hoover was asking about known hoaxes and not an alien craft. To my knowledge the proper context for this quote has never before been ascertained.

    Please see this handwritten entry by Hoover; page 45 of pdf#1 in the FBI UFO files.
    http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo.htm

    July 15th, 1947; responding to the urging of others for the FBI to stay out of the UFO business, Hoover writes the following:
    Next, Hoovers memo is quoted and we see that the unreadable portion is the La. case. Please see the FBI pdf file; the first paragraph of p 38.

    http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf

    Here is the definitive doc that shows clear knowledge by the FBI that the saucer in the La. case is "sixteen inches in diameter".
    See p 4 of 79 of the FBI pdf #2:

    http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo2.pdf
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2003
  2. jcsd
  3. Oct 15, 2003 #2
    I haven't actually looked at the links, sorry I don't have the time, but is there a possibility of misinformation on the CIA's part or are we sure that it is all the TV networks that were wrong/lying on this one?
     
  4. Oct 15, 2003 #3

    Ivan Seeking

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    It looks like a clear case of misinterpretation to me. I seriously doubt these files have been tampered with; too much FBI UFO evidence [official reports not physical evidence] is still found. This is not consistent with a coverup. Keep in mind that each agency has its own files obtained through the FOIA. The Army may have destroyed files, in fact according to the General Accounting Office, they did in the Roswell case; and illegally at that. But that doesn't mean that all of the other agencies like the FBI, CIA, NSA, DOD etc have tampered with their files.
     
  5. Oct 16, 2003 #4
    Johnathan,

    Here's the original memo with Hoover's handwritten comment again:

    attachment.php?s=&postid=64141
    Address:https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=64141

    Hoover says:

    "I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the La. case the Army grabbed it + would not let us have it for cursory examination. H"

    Ivan transcribed "the La. case" as "unreadable". To me it was obviously La. or Sa. i.e.: an abrieviation for something. La.. I noted, is the abrieviation for Louisiana.

    Ivan has uncovered the information that just a week before this memo the Army "grabbed" one of these hoaxed saucers from a location in Louisiana before the FBI special agent could get a look at it, and wouldn't let him examine it.

    This means the often quoted Hoover memo has all along, been a reference to the Army denying the FBI access to the La. hoax, and an expression of his wish to have access to all future recovered "discs". He doesn't suggest he thinks the Roswell wreckage is anything more than another hoax. His main concern seems to be that the Army not curtail the authority of the FBI.

    -Zooby
     
  6. Oct 25, 2003 #5

    Ivan Seeking

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    Ivan eats Roswell crow

    I have been corresponding with Stan Friedman - the father of Roswell. Friedman pointed out that in the book the UFO-FBI Connection, c 2000, by Bruce Maccabee, Maccabee properly represents this quote on p7. In typical fashion, much of the media fails to address this point.

    Here's the eating crow part: I read the d*mned book when it came out. For some reason I skipped this entire section. I was not even aware that Maccabee addressed this quote.

    I want to state that Mr. Friedman is most interested in getting the story straight. He was very helpful and spent some time to help sort this out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2003
  7. Oct 25, 2003 #6
    Yes, but does Mr. Friedman know about the corroborative info you found that shows the "La. case" was clearly about a hoax, and not a genuine ET craft?
     
  8. Oct 25, 2003 #7

    Ivan Seeking

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    Yes. Also, Maccabee makes this quite clear.

    Friedman also points out that there was a Los Alamos case. He makes this point I think because of an apparent contradiction: The army agreed at the time to give the FBI access to the La. disc. He seems to think that they did have access and that this can be substantiated. I didn't ask too many questions here as I didn't want to be a nuisance.

    Interestingly, Friedman indicated that he was not aware of some of the construction details of the hoax. He seemed interested in this.
     
  9. Oct 25, 2003 #8

    Ivan Seeking

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  10. Oct 25, 2003 #9
    Huh? The Hoover note, and the agents report you dug up, specifically say the FBI was denied access.

    Los Alamos case? Dates?

    Like, what words did he use to convey this?


    Once I went to the site and saw his picture I realized I've seen him on about three different shows.
    What did you mean he helped sort this out? He helped Maccabee with his book?
     
  11. Oct 25, 2003 #10

    Ivan Seeking

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    I know there was a Los Alamos case but I will have to find it.


    Friedman's comment:
    Posted by Zooby:
    I think the FBI stuff is Maccabees domain. When I emailed Friedman the link to the "Hoover debunked" thread, along with the claim that this statement was bogus and needed to be corrected, he objected to my assertion - I was asking him to set the story straight in the media. He then went to the link and read the papers. He also found the correct page in Maccabee's book that discusses this quote. From there I got his final reponse.

    Note: There may be photos of the La. case. With 1400 pages of hard to read FBI UFO docs, these references takes a little time to find. Obvously photos are a easier than text. There are photos but I think these all relate to other cases.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2003
  12. Oct 25, 2003 #11
    So, where things actually stand is that he has an intuition based on memory that the FBI did get access to the La. disc but he's not sure where all the info is.

    The evidence we actually do have in hand (worth two in the bush) is that the FBI was denied access to the La. disc. We have Hoover's note and the special agent's report. If Maccabee p.7 reports both of these, what is he presenting in addition to completely contradict them?

    There was a Los Alamos case but neither of you has any details. There is confusion. Was access granted to La. or L.A.?
     
  13. Oct 26, 2003 #12

    Ivan Seeking

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    His comment related more to this: First, the FBI report indicated that the FBI would be granted access if they desired. The other point is that the FBI had a precise description of the disc. I think Friedman's point was that if they never had access, then how did they get such a precise description. He also alludes to photos which may or may not relate to this case...I'm not sure. As far as Los Alamos, I will have to do some checking before I can comment. I know I have read the case file but I don't remember any specifics.

    I think this is the point. Since the FBI seems to know so much about the La. case, they must have had access. Next, perhaps he meant the L.A. case. Again, I will dig this up. I don't think he was disputing the premise that Hoover meant other hoaxes. I recall the Los Alamos case as being a hoax also...we will see.
     
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