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Fascist America

  1. Apr 24, 2007 #1

    J77

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    Not my choice of a thread title but the title of this Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

    Thought you may be interested as it ties closely with a lot of Bush/Cheney threads.
    e2a: thanks to whoever moved it from general.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2007
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 24, 2007 #2
    Very interesting. In many countries we've been thinking that way for a while, and it feels good to see that the english-speaking part of the world is opening their eyes :smile: Meanwhile back in France, we might soon elect as a president something at least as dangerous as Bush...
     
  4. Apr 24, 2007 #3

    russ_watters

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    Staff: Mentor

    This topic comes up from time to time and though the article has a recent date, the story isn't new. It is essentially a plagarization of an article that has been making the rounds on the anti US/hippie/socialist blogs for several years. The earliest reference I see in a quick google is 2003 on Rense.com of all places: http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

    It is an utterly rediculous attempt to slander the US. The criteria are so broad and vague and in many cases innocuous as to be useless. You'd have trouble finding countries in the world that most of those don't apply to.

    For your specific example, J77, ever hear of NATO and the Cold War? That one applied until recently to every member. And though the title of that one says invoking, the description says creating. Uh, sorry, but Bush didn't create terrorism - 9/11 actually happened.

    The second one is more slanderous and ludicrous - why don't you guys feel insulted just by reading it? The Gulag is a specific institution created by the USSR for Russian political prisoners and you are allowing a comparison with Guantanamo Bay? Seriously? Why doesn't it piss you off that this person is making such rediculous comparisons? It is insulting not only to the US, but to the intelligence of the reader of the "article".
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2007
  5. Apr 24, 2007 #4
    I found this cartoon very amusing:

    "Running the Machine"

    Quotes (clockwise from mill):

    Man running mill (Salmon P. Chase?): "These are the greediest fellows I ever saw. With all my exertions I can't satisfy their pocket, though I keep the Mill going day and night."

    Messenger: "Mr. Secretary! here is a dispatch. We have captured one prisoner and one gun; a great Victory."

    Seward: "Ah well! Telegraph to General Dix immediately."

    Lincoln: "All this reminds me of a most capital joke."

    Man with bell: "Officer! I am told that Snooks has called me "A Humbug," ... Take this warrant and put him in Fort Lafayette... I'll teach him to speak against the Government."

    Man writing: "They say the Tallahassee sails 24 miles an hour! ... Well then, we'll send 4 Gunboats after her that can sail 6 miles an hour, and that will just make enough to catch her."

    Man with beard at bottom: "Give us more Greenbacks, compound interest."

    Other man: "Give us more Greenbacks."

    I am not comparing the Bush administration to Lincoln's, but one could change only a few words and names to make the cartoon a satirization of the Bush administration. The "victory" news of capturing one prisoner, the man being thrown into a military prison for speaking against the government and the two greedy men at the bottom of the table; equivalents would be drawn were the cartoon made today.
     
  6. Apr 24, 2007 #5

    Ivan Seeking

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    Note that about 40% of us here have had our eyes wide open all along, but despite our best efforts, there was nothing that we could do to stop this outrage. We tried like hell, but there was no stopping the Bush/Cheney/Rove lie machine. Far too many people are incapable of seeing that they've been had by people of very low quality...that, or they really don't care.
     
  7. Apr 24, 2007 #6

    Art

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    The article was penned by an American so slandering the US is unlikely to have been her motivation.

    You appear to be confusing the country of the US of A with a small corrupt cabal. Unless you believe Bush and co are synonymous with America in which case that is something I would definitely call slandering America.

    As for when is a gulag not a gulag I think the Bard summed that up best - 'A rose is still a rose by any other name' the same applies to concentration camps.

    Personally I think America is a great country with mostly great people and I think this article by an American warning of the dangers to the traditional American way of life and it's constitution is a patriotic act which should be lauded.

    As someone else once said ' For evil to triumph it only takes good men to do nothing' At least this author is trying to do something which in my book makes her one of the good guys.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2007
  8. Apr 24, 2007 #7

    russ_watters

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    It would be interesting to know why she is writing for the Guardian...
    If it is yellow/orange, 6 feet tall, and a foot in diameter, is it still a rose? See, you're looking at the issue backwards: she isn't using the wrong word to describe a similar concept, she simply applied a name that doesn't fit. Your use of the term "concentration camp" works somewhat similarly, as the term can be applied so broadly as to apply to fit any wartime detention center if you want. But by stricter, more conventional/recognized definitions that fit what the Nazis did, Gitmo comes nowhere close. So it becomes a meaningless word thrown around because it can be intentionally misleadingly appliead broadly and conjures up false images of Naziism.

    Gitmo is not a gualg and it is not a concentration camp.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2007
  9. Apr 24, 2007 #8

    Evo

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    She's an "over the edge" feminist and her views surely are not representative of the majority of Americans.

    She tends to cash in on sensationalist topics.

    "According to a 2006 interview with Torcuil Crichton in the Sunday Herald, Wolf claimed to have channelled an adolescent male and had a vision of Jesus Christ in an experience which prompted her to re-explore her own spirituality and her views on what is "sacred" in femininity."

    I'm verifying this.
     
  10. Apr 24, 2007 #9

    Art

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    She isn't. It's an extract from 'The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot' published by Chelsea Green Publishers.

    I think it is you who has missed the point. Shakespeare was referring to the scent of a rose. Guantanamo Bay, secret CIA prisons, concentration camps and Gulags all have the same stink about them i.e. abuse of basic human rights without recourse to justice.

    Even within the formal US justice system liberties are being severely eroded e.g.
    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2430125.ece
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2007
  11. Apr 24, 2007 #10

    Chi Meson

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    Gitmo is in fact a very special place where the laws of the USA do not apply. This is a fact attested by the Bush admin when the prisoner were first taken there. "It's part of Cuba" they said, yet they never consulted with Castro what to do with the "detainees."

    Quote from
    This bothers me. This is unamerican.

    That being said, the Guardian article has that "tone" which makes it clear they are not being objective.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2007
  12. May 9, 2007 #11
    I don't see how this makes it unlikely.
     
  13. May 9, 2007 #12

    russ_watters

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    Maybe I should let this go, since it is now two weeks old, but I just saw it...
    Wow, Art, wow. 6 million people died in the Nazi concentration camps and 1.6 million in the Russian Gulag and 'Gitmo has the same "stink" to you? I have no words to describe the breadth of the cognitive dissonance required to hold that thought in your head.

    A sunflower (from my example) doesn't smell anything at all like a rose (or look like one except in that both are flowers): Guantanamo Bay similarly bears no resemblance to the Nazi concentration camps or Russian Gulag. The purposes are different and the treatment of the prisoners is different.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2007
  14. May 9, 2007 #13
    Certainly agreed. But that does not mean that Bush should not be sued for crime against humanity. I am aware this will not happen :smile:
     
  15. May 9, 2007 #14
    1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy

    That one is a given.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0704150326apr16,1,6049960.story

    2. Create a gulag

    http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/47/17936

    What are these "new programs?"

    3. Develop a thug caste

    http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Blackwater_USA

    4. Set up an internal surveillance system

    http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/lockheed-martin-to-build-high-altitude-airship-for-homeland-secu/

    5. Harass citizens' groups

    Got to keep a close eye on those pacifists. :devil:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/print/1/displaymode/1098/

    6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release

    http://law.shu.edu/aaafinal.pdf

    http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/29/russia15576.htm

    7. Target key individuals

    US attorneys, CIA NOC's, scientists, anyone not a "loyal Bushy" or "Ditto-head".

    8. Control the press

    FOX

    9. Dissent equals treason

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You're_either_with_us,_or_against_us

    10. Suspend the rule of law

    Posse comma whaatever.

    Signing statements anyone?

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061017-9.html

    Emphasis mine.

    What is a unitary executive anyway? sounds a lot like "dictatorship"

    http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20060109_bergen.html

    Madame speaker is going to challenge his unitary exeutive.

    http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/pelosi-threat-to-sue-bush-over-iraq-bill-2007-05-08.html

    Fascism is corporatism.
     
  16. May 10, 2007 #15

    Art

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    So to you it's a matter of numbers. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell us in your opinion how many victims of torture, sexual abuse and murder coupled with denial of the most basic human rights does it take before the likes of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo does carry for you the same stink as the Russian and Nazi concentration camps? And on the same basis how many children in your opinion does a paedophile have to abuse before it becomes reprehensible?

    Your argument of small numbers negating despicable behaviour is simply ludicrous.

    As an interesting aside one could argue from a purely legal POV the Bush administrations behaviour is worse as Hitler didn't actually break any existing laws with his behaviour whereas Bush and co did. The charges brought against the Nazis at Nuremburg of crimes against humanity were for breaking laws only enacted after the end of WW2.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2007
  17. May 10, 2007 #16

    loseyourname

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    I think it's important to remember the function of a gulag when comparing Gitmo to the secret prisons used by fascist regimes. The point of a gulag is to suppress political dissent, to punish those who would disagree with the ruling party so as to create an effective one-party system whereby control is complete and concentrated in the hands of a very small number of like-minded people.

    If Gitmo was really a gulag, the writer of this article would be imprisoned there. Violating human rights is a terrible thing to do, but doing it doesn't make you a fascist.
     
  18. May 10, 2007 #17
    If I had a choice of prisons, Gitmo would be my first pic. They are living large over there. And the weather is great.
     
  19. May 10, 2007 #18
    Yeah, you just can't beat Gitmo for a five year get away. And you wouldn't be a prisoner, only a detainee. Although if a person has been a detainee for more than 5 years they just might be a prisoner.:surprised
     
  20. May 11, 2007 #19
    heh, iv seen some investigative reporting that says the fishing is great and they are also otherwise "treated humainly"
     
  21. May 11, 2007 #20
    The fishing is great for who, the guys shackled to the floor?? It is very difficult to fish in that position.:rolleyes:
     
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