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Fifth force?

  1. Dec 8, 2006 #1
    Have there been any theories in recent decades that suggest one? Or more? I know it may seem unnecessary or even frivolous, but theories beyond the standard model are, after all, grappling with issues like how the entire universe and its four forces came to exist. Has anyone postulated a fifth force that would have "cooled" away from the TOE force (somehow leading to the big bang), which then cooled into gravity and the GUT force, which then cooled into the strong force and the electroweak, which then cooled into the weak and the electromagnetic...

    For that matter, has anyone suggested that the electromagnetic would eventually cool into two separate forces?

    What do you think?

    Please forgive me, if my layman's understanding seems way off.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2006
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 11, 2006 #2
    Yes, this has been considered, and there have been searches done for it. Since we don't see this force in everyday life, one would expect that it is either:

    1 Confined. That is, the force is so strong that it has bound naked charges so tightly together that we can't see their charge (ie. everything looks neutral). One can search for this by looking for substructure in particles like quarks and leptons (maybe they are bound states of something else?)

    2 Broken. The mediating particle may be so heavy that it is difficult to produce and therefore the force is very short range. This is caused by the symmetry the force is based apon being broken (just like the weak force is). We can search for this by looking for the heavy mediating particle.

    Both of these have been searched for and nothing has been found. But of course, that search is not yet conclusive and we may yet (in my opinion probably will) find a new force sometime.

    Incidentally, the electromagnetic force does sort of separate: into electricty and magnetism.
  4. Dec 14, 2006 #3


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    At low energies, the universe is mediated by the four fundamental forces. The term 'low energies' is a bit misleading because it takes an enormous amount of energy to enter the realm where only 3 forces are in play [the electroweak, strong force and gravity]. This was not accomplished until 1983 at CERN. It would be inconsistent with current theory for other breaks to occur at even higher energies, but not inconceivable. The other possibilty is another break might occur at extremely low energies. Matter starts getting weird as you approach absolute zero. The next milestone in the high energy regime [called grand unification] is believed to occur at extremely high [as in almost incomprehensible] energies. This may be possible in the LHC if the low end estimates are correct, but is regarded as a long shot. Few if any scientists hold any hope we will ever reach the energies necessary to take the last step and unify all four forces [aka TOE]. Unless, of course, someone figures out how to recreate the Big Bang. Frankly, that is one experiment I would prefer they not try in our universe. According to string theory, there may still be wispy filaments left floating around in our universe from the last big event. If found, I suspect they might turn out to be fragments of lab coats. Here is a link you may find of interest:

  5. Dec 15, 2006 #4
    SLAC has proposed the Higgs force as the fifth force.

    'The Real Fifth Force, and More?'
    "... The simplest version introduced one more force--the Higgs force--and one more particle type--the Higgs particle--related to this force. Searches for this particle and efforts to learn more about how particle masses occur are one active area of particle studies. Other models introduce more complicated explanations for particle masses. ..."
  6. Dec 20, 2006 #5
    David Peat mentioned in his book on string theory that for a while a 5th force, called the glue force, was being considered. I haven't found any other source, though I haven't searched very hard for one, that explains what this force is. The messenger particle was thought to be a gluon, but it was seperate from the strong nuclear force.
  7. Dec 28, 2006 #6


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    http://www.arxiv.org/gr-qc/0309134" [Broken] paper (see page 6) talks about "the existence of a fifth force which is due to the fifth dimension...the new force acts parallel to the 4-velocity".
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  8. Jan 21, 2007 #7
    Nice paper, I like this summary statement:
    "God does not play dice in a higher-dimensional world"
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  9. Jan 21, 2007 #8
    Tendention in physics is to unify known 3-4 fundamental forces .Not to split electromagnetic in two new forces.There's no experimental or theoretical evidence/call for this.But if you still like to think about 5th force in Universe good source is : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119116/
  10. Feb 9, 2007 #9
    An unsimplified system of equations describing partical relationships

    Related to the article cited, almost all physics will simplify equations to make the mathematics easier to manipulate. Series are often used to throw out all but the dominant influences of an equation.

    Has anyone seen a reference that is a depository for all mathematical relationships related to physics where no such simplifications are assumed?

    In electrical engineering, the formula used for calculating wavelength is substantially reduced for real world applications (close enough). But in understanding the interactions related to nuclear particles, gravity, and UE, how can we ignore the "noise" cited in the article, without losing sight of broader interactions and implications?

    In UE, might photon, gravity, and all subatomic particles be the coincidence of properties associated with the Unified Energy? These broader equations would help to predict the occurence of hidden UE properties, or the coincidence of UE properties not yet observed, by relating the equations describing observable properties.

    Gravity has no aberration, but it has propagation delay. Photons have both aberration and propagation delay. There seems to be a potential property in UE that is part of both Gravity and photons.

    I surmise in UE, these shared properties/qualities may be part of mathematic formula which can describe dimensional coincidence, if we would not simplify. If mathematic relationships continue to include and use broader influences even though the overall effects may be "negligible", then we may have a tool for predicting and manipulating property influences in multidimensional space, like the creation of rogue waves in the ocean. Manipulating influences in multidimensional space to excite a maximum of an observable or hidden UE property.

    I hope to forever be decreasingly ignorant.
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