Financing a second bachelor's?

[cdotter]

I'm close to graduating with a B.S. in 'applied mathematics.' I'm at a bit of a crossroad because I'm not happy with my degree. I should have realized that studying exclusively math wasn't for me, but I couldn't afford to transfer to a better school with a real science and engineering departments, and it's too late now.

Anyway, I'm considering working for a bit and then going back to school, possibly for a second bachelor's in an unrelated field (chemistry, physics, or engineering.)

How does financing a second bachelor's degree typically work? From what I've read, it seems that federal loans (FAFSA) have a hard cap on the amount one can borrow over a life time, even if the loans have been paid off. Does this mean one would have to pay for a second degree in 'cash'? Do universities typically offer second bachelor's students any institutional grants or scholarships?

I understand that this is probably a university-specific matter, but please share any personal accounts because it would help to give me a better idea of how financing a second bachelor's may work. Thank you.

 

[bpatrick]

I would personally try to find a job that either pays or reimburses you for additional coursework.

I know that is easier said than done, especially with the economy and state of everything right now. You may want to consider doing remedial work for a year or two and then getting a masters in whatever it is you want. Applied math undergrad will pretty much let you just focus on whatever science/engineering stuff you want (rather than have to learn math concurrently).

As far as what my friends who are working relate to me: their companies often offer reimbursement for courses taken towards a masters degree that's applicable to, well something the company could use you for later. Like you enroll in the course (if you don't have cash up front you may consider a small credit union loan for whatever the price of the course is ~ couple hundred to a thousand or so depending on institution), and then when you're done and get a decent grade the company will give you money for having done it. Some will even pay all of the tuition and fees, just depends.

My cousin's company gives reimbursement of 100% if you get an A, 75% for a B, 50% for a C and nothing if you can't pull a C. A friend of mine pays 50% himself (upfront) when he enrolls in a new course each semester and takes the outstanding tuition bill to his company who matches it and pays the rest off.

I'm pretty sure both of them have to sign some legal stuff where they agree to stay with the company for 2 years or something or if they don't they'll be required to pay back whatever the company spent on their education expenses.

I wouldn't recommend going back full-time. I'm in huge debt from undergrad and medical school and it's hard finding work, at least in my geographic area (which I prefer to stay until my fiancee graduates in May). I'm looking at getting a job wherever we move and then doing another masters part-time through my job (hopefully).

 

[cdotter]

Don't employer reimbursements typically come with stipulations, i.e., you have to work with us for x years or we'll bill you the cost of your tuition? Either way, I plan on getting a job in the oil/gas industry as a field engineer and working for a good 4 years or so. The money is very good (although the hours and work conditions are horrible), so I should be able to pay off my current loans and fund most to all of a second bachelor's without any need for employer reimbursements. I'm just curious as to whether universities typically offer grants or scholarships to second bachelor's students, and my primary concern is what happens if I run out of money before I complete my second bachelors. Will I be forced to take out private loans? Am I completely ineligible for any other type of federal loan?

 

[bpatrick]

You can probably get more loans? most of what I was saying earlier is you should highly consider not getting a second bachelors, but instead either study remedial stuff on your own or take a few undergraduate courses, and then go for a masters degree.

As far as I'm aware, most universities require a certain amount of credits to be completed at their institution and would only give you credit for part of your first bachelors. Like they'd credit you for 60 credits of your gen eds or something (assuming your old school and new school overlap in requirements) and then you'd probably still have to take a "final" 60 credits at the new school to finish a B.S.

Getting a M.S. seems much more practical considering you can probably take 3-4 (9-16 credits depending) remedial classes and then start the M.S. program in whatever you're looking at, complete the 30 or so credits required for the masters.

A point that didn't come across that well in my previous post is that, both people I know who are doing continuing education through their employer are doing it for their M.S. / M.Eng / M.B.A. / etc... and I'm also pretty sure those companies don't offer those things if you're only working towards a bachelors degree.

 

[cdotter]

You can probably get more loans? most of what I was saying earlier is you should highly consider not getting a second bachelors, but instead either study remedial stuff on your own or take a few undergraduate courses, and then go for a masters degree.

As far as I'm aware, most universities require a certain amount of credits to be completed at their institution and would only give you credit for part of your first bachelors. Like they'd credit you for 60 credits of your gen eds or something (assuming your old school and new school overlap in requirements) and then you'd probably still have to take a "final" 60 credits at the new school to finish a B.S.

Getting a M.S. seems much more practical considering you can probably take 3-4 (9-16 credits depending) remedial classes and then start the M.S. program in whatever you're looking at, complete the 30 or so credits required for the masters.

A point that didn't come across that well in my previous post is that, both people I know who are doing continuing education through their employer are doing it for their M.S. / M.Eng / M.B.A. / etc... and I'm also pretty sure those companies don't offer those things if you're only working towards a bachelors degree.

I've thought about going for a master's, but it's just too much catch-up. Not only the upper level classes but also the lower level classes. The quality of instruction at my university is not that great because even in spite having a high GPA, I still feel clueless. I kind of want to re-learn most the basic coursework in a structured classroom environment.

 

[twofish-quant]

Anyway, I'm considering working for a bit and then going back to school, possibly for a second bachelor's in an unrelated field (chemistry, physics, or engineering.)

Probably should reconsider. The only purpose in getting a degree is so that it looks good on your resume, and having two bachelors looks bad. Note that statement was with respect to getting a *degree*. If you want to just learn stuff, that's great, but you can take courses on the side with or with distance learning, and you'll find it a lot easier to do if you don't try to put it into a degree program.

 

[cdotter]

Probably should reconsider. The only purpose in getting a degree is so that it looks good on your resume, and having two bachelors looks bad. Note that statement was with respect to getting a *degree*. If you want to just learn stuff, that's great, but you can take courses on the side with or with distance learning, and you'll find it a lot easier to do if you don't try to put it into a degree program.

There's always an option of leaving the first degree off my resume.

I want a second degree because I'm not qualified to go directly to graduate school in science and engineering. If I get a second bachelors then I would plan on going to graduate school. (No, I don't have any fantasies of working in academia because I realize the chances of it happening are pretty much nil.)

I know there is an option of taking courses not as part of a degree, like you suggested, but it comes at a price. Students without an ABET accredited engineering bachelors cannot gain or cannot easily gain a PE license in some states, and I don't think non-degree seeking science students are typically eligible for undergraduate research.

 

[twofish-quant]

There's always an option of leaving the first degree off my resume.

In fact there isn't. One of the first things that HR will do is to look at the dates, and it's really hard to leave something out without an obvious gap.

I want a second degree because I'm not qualified to go directly to graduate school in science and engineering.

You really need to check to make sure that this is in fact the situation, and if it is, you should really look into the possibility of taking extra courses in addition to the bachelors.

Students without an ABET accredited engineering bachelors cannot gain or cannot easily gain a PE license in some states

This matters if you are want to go into civil engineering, however PE licensing is irrelevant for electrical or software engineering (and I believe someone mentioned that it wasn't important for mechanical engineering, but someone else will need to confirm.)

 

[Mépris]

Look into studying outside of the USA for an MSc.

http://www.theorie.physik.uni-muenchen.de/studies/elite-master-tmp/index.html

One with either a mathematics or physics degree is eligible to apply for this MSc course. One should also take the GRE in the appropriate subject, i.e, math in your case. I don't know why they are that flexible but my educated guess is you'll probably have to do a bit of catch-up, physics wise.

 

[cdotter]

In fact there isn't. One of the first things that HR will do is to look at the dates, and it's really hard to leave something out without an obvious gap.



You really need to check to make sure that this is in fact the situation, and if it is, you should really look into the possibility of taking extra courses in addition to the bachelors.



This matters if you are want to go into civil engineering, however PE licensing is irrelevant for electrical or software engineering (and I believe someone mentioned that it wasn't important for mechanical engineering, but someone else will need to confirm.)

PE licensing aside, do companies typically hire applicants with an MS in engineering and no work experience? It seems that BS level internships offered through schools require progress toward an ABET accredited BS and most graduate schools don't offer (or at least advertise) any type of internship programs.

 

[cdotter]

^ Could someone comment on this? I mean it does seem like a better idea to take classes to prepare for a MS (versus going back for a second bachelors), but I don't want to end up unemployable or unable to go graduate school because of no research experience.

 

[twofish-quant]

PE licensing aside, do companies typically hire applicants with an MS in engineering and no work experience?

In electrical engineering and computer science, yes, but a lot depends on the general state of the economy.

Most graduate schools don't offer (or at least advertise) any type of internship programs.

They exist, although things can be quite informal.

 

[Saladsamurai]

^ Could someone comment on this? I mean it does seem like a better idea to take classes to prepare for a MS (versus going back for a second bachelors), but I don't want to end up unemployable or unable to go graduate school because of no research experience.

I know of one school in Massachusetts that does a formal graduate engineering co-op ( in mechanical at least, possibly other engineering too). School 6 months, work 6 months until you graduate. No bullsh$$ either. I'm talking real work experience where you are paid well and are expected to perform.

 

[fss]

Getting a second bachelor's degree is a complete waste of time and money.

 

[daveyinaz]

Probably should reconsider. The only purpose in getting a degree is so that it looks good on your resume, and having two bachelors looks bad.

I agree with twofish on his first statement. Most times getting a second bachelors is unnecessary unless it's really something that you want to really do, for example, one of my former coworkers who had an electrical engineering degree and was working as a full time software engineer decided she wanted to become a nurse. She did her second bachelors in nursing and is now happier than ever working where she wanted to be. You'll also notice this contradicts what fss said which I hope you don't take to heart.

I guess it really comes down to what a second degree really means to you.

On the other hand, I also disagree with twofish in that two bachelors looks bad. After I graduated with a CS degree, I worked full time professionally while taking 1 class a semester towards getting a second bachelors degree (self-financed) in mathematics. After completing the degree and putting it on my resume, I've never had one disparaging remark regarding having two degrees.

In fact, I'm more inclined to believe that people typically view having two degrees as a good thing. Any average or below average intelligent individual will generally think "1 college degree..you must be smart...but 2 degrees! wow you must be really smart! you're hired" and the individuals that are on the higher end of the bell curve will think usually think 1 of 2 things: 1..."you have two degrees...man i wish i had the time/money/motivation to continue my education and pad my resume but kudos to you for doing it...you're hired" or 2 "this guy is like me and loves to learn, he has great potential...you're hired".

 

[Vanadium 50]

There is a different between having a EE degree, getting a second degree in nursing and applying for jobs as a nurse and having a EE degree, getting a second degree in nursing and applying for jobs as an engineer.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Getting a second bachelor's degree is a complete waste of time and money.

Im working on my second bachelors because it keeps my student loans in deferment and saves me money, both monthly and overall.

edit - although, this applies more to working on a bachelors rather than getting one.

 

[H2Bro]

I'm also debating the merits of a second bachelors, though largely because my first degree is in the humanities (sociology and anthropology) and I would like to enter engineering. I have worked for a couple years since graduating with my B.A., and I'm thoroughly disenchanted with the variety of employment one can go into ( and expect reasonable payment) with this qualification. Currently I don't see a real viable route to enter into a graduate school in engineering / physics (I'm looking to get into renewable energies, ideally) without doing the coursework of undergrad.

Luckily the program I am applying for is only 3 years compared to 4, but still; would having a BA be a liability for someone entering the engineering industry? I had top-notch marks in Sociology (it is, in hindsight, something easy to get high marks in) - do you folks think a " Joe Smith, BA, Bsc, Msc" would look a little odd on a resume? My thought is that it will either look like I really don't know what I want to do with myself, or it will look like I have a versatile skillset. Or both, or neither.

Urgh, if I had a nickel for every minute I spent trying to anticipate what employers think...

 

[Choppy]

I don't think neccessarily looks bad at all to get a second degree - particularly if the second one is a professional degree. Take medical doctors for example. The MD is actually a second undergraduate degree and they tend to do okay.

Another option is always technical training. My brother-in-law for example completed his paramedic training after receiving a degree in biology. He seems to love his work now and has really excelled in the field. I think a lot of that comes from the fact that the degree gave him a solid education and the technical training gave him particular employable skills.

What looks wishy-washy is when you do a second degree without much more purpose or direction than you had with the first. And that's because, well, doing that kind if IS wishy-washing.

 

[daveyinaz]

There is a different between having a EE degree, getting a second degree in nursing and applying for jobs as a nurse and having a EE degree, getting a second degree in nursing and applying for jobs as an engineer.

There sure is a different! I'm confused as to why you felt this needed to be said.

To try to make sense of it, I'll say that it seems that the OP assumes that engineering is unrelated to applied mathematics...which I don't believe is necessarily true but to each his own. It's just as well since the career/education path he is claiming to want to take is generally in the same vein so the comparison between the two degrees is not so vast.

IMHO, I think the OP should just do what feels right. If you want to get a second degree, definitely don't let fear [from employers, elitists, etc] stop you from doing it. If you don't want a second degree, don't get it...continue to do whatever it is you were going to do in the first place.

But just to add more personal experience information stuff. No you cannot get governmental financial aid such as Pell grants if you already have 1 bachelors. Although you can get federal subsidized and unsubsidized loans while pursuing a second undergrad degree.
ALSO read university policies before attempting your second undergraduate degree, it might be the case that if a university confers a degree upon you like a bachelor's of science, then you might not be able to get a second one. The loop-hole is to try to obtain a bachelor's of arts.

 

[cdotter]

ALSO read university policies before attempting your second undergraduate degree, it might be the case that if a university confers a degree upon you like a bachelor's of science, then you might not be able to get a second one. The loop-hole is to try to obtain a bachelor's of arts.

Yes, thank you. Luckily it seems that a lot of the schools I want to apply to (in 3-4 years) will accept students for a second bachelor's provided that the degree is in something unrelated to the first. Math and science/engineering seem sufficiently varied, from what I can gather.

 

[twofish-quant]

After completing the degree and putting it on my resume, I've never had one disparaging remark regarding having two degrees.

There's a selection effect in that you never hear from the employer in situations where a degree hurts you.

In fact, I'm more inclined to believe that people typically view having two degrees as a good thing.

This is highly company/industry dependent, but in the companies/industries I've worked in, "too much schooling" is considered a bad thing. The worry is that if you've been in school too long that's taken as a sign that you can't adapt to the workplace.

1..."you have two degrees...man i wish i had the time/money/motivation to continue my education and pad my resume but kudos to you for doing it...you're hired" or 2 "this guy is like me and loves to learn, he has great potential...you're hired".

1) Lot's of people in industry dislike school. Sometimes I get the feeling that there is an element of revenge in that you have managers that hated school and barely passed, and now that they are in the hiring chair, they can get revenge against people that got straight A's by not hiring them.

2) "loving to learn" or "having great potential" is considered a *bad* thing in some employment situations. "loving to learn=easily distracted by things that won't make us money" "having great potential=he'll leave us as soon as he figures out how much we are underpaying him"

Being in school too long is something that Ph.D.'s have to work against when they look for industry jobs, but that's balanced by having extra skills.

Also, no one is going to look at a resume and say "you are hired." The way that it works is that you get 50 resumes from the recruiter, and then you try to pick the top 5 for an interview. One reason graduate degrees work is that if you have 50 resumes, you are finding 5, and then 25 of them have masters degrees, then can quickly trash the remaining 25 without thinking.

One human trait is that people have sympathy for people that they have personally talked to, so employers will go out of their way to avoid personal interactions with candidates since it makes selection harder.

 

[twofish-quant]

Luckily the program I am applying for is only 3 years compared to 4, but still; would having a BA be a liability for someone entering the engineering industry?

In that particular situation, I don't think it would be a major handicap. One thing that you should look for is a school with a strong internship program since work experience trumps everything.

I had top-notch marks in Sociology (it is, in hindsight, something easy to get high marks in) - do you folks think a " Joe Smith, BA, Bsc, Msc" would look a little odd on a resume?

Yes because your name shouldn't have any post-nominal letters other than *maybe* a doctorate, and even maybe not then.

My thought is that it will either look like I really don't know what I want to do with myself, or it will look like I have a versatile skillset. Or both, or neither.

Urgh, if I had a nickel for every minute I spent trying to anticipate what employers think...

Different employers are different which is sometimes a good thing. For example, if you have two bachelors degrees, and some employer immediately tosses your resume in the trash, then it's probably somewhere that you wouldn't want to work at anyway. You can't please everyone, and you shouldn't even try.

As long as one person says yes, it doesn't matter how many people say no.

 

[twofish-quant]

IMHO, I think the OP should just do what feels right. If you want to get a second degree, definitely don't let fear [from employers, elitists, etc] stop you from doing it. If you don't want a second degree, don't get it...continue to do whatever it is you were going to do in the first place.

That depends on what he wants to do. If you want to get a degree for the hell of it, then that's great! I know people that are basically professional students. They work odd jobs, and then spend their lives collecting degrees. If you want that, that's fine.

However, if you want to get a degree to help you get a job, then you really do have to care what employers think... Also, you have to care even if employers are being totally unreasonable and silly.

 

[H2Bro]

I know people that are basically professional students. They work odd jobs, and then spend their lives collecting degrees. If you want that, that's fine.

I'm almost tempted to go that route. I think the happiest I've been was when I had very little money but had an abundance of books to read and all that was expected was that I learn that material quite well. ahhh college days.

 

[daveyinaz]

1) Lot's of people in industry dislike school. Sometimes I get the feeling that there is an element of revenge in that you have managers that hated school and barely passed, and now that they are in the hiring chair, they can get revenge against people that got straight A's by not hiring them.

Are you serious? You say this as if it's a fact...yet looks like it's all based on a feeling you get and a broad generalization of people who work professionally.

2) "loving to learn" or "having great potential" is considered a *bad* thing in some employment situations. "loving to learn=easily distracted by things that won't make us money" "having great potential=he'll leave us as soon as he figures out how much we are underpaying him"

lol...do you just make up this stuff on the spot?

Also, no one is going to look at a resume and say "you are hired." The way that it works is that you get 50 resumes from the recruiter, and then you try to pick the top 5 for an interview. One reason graduate degrees work is that if you have 50 resumes, you are finding 5, and then 25 of them have masters degrees, then can quickly trash the remaining 25 without thinking.

Firstly, I was throwing a little bit of humor with the whole "you're hired", obviously you didn't catch on, but in any case...I think you paint too bleak of a picture whereas I'm pretty sure my assessment of the everyman's perception of two degrees is a little more based on reality.

It should also be apparent by now that there are at least two schools of thought on this subject and up till this point I hope I've helped the OP at the very minimum to see this.

 

[AsianSensationK]

I'm close to graduating with a B.S. in 'applied mathematics.' I'm at a bit of a crossroad because I'm not happy with my degree. I should have realized that studying exclusively math wasn't for me, but I couldn't afford to transfer to a better school with a real science and engineering departments, and it's too late now.

Anyway, I'm considering working for a bit and then going back to school, possibly for a second bachelor's in an unrelated field (chemistry, physics, or engineering.)

How does financing a second bachelor's degree typically work? From what I've read, it seems that federal loans (FAFSA) have a hard cap on the amount one can borrow over a life time, even if the loans have been paid off. Does this mean one would have to pay for a second degree in 'cash'? Do universities typically offer second bachelor's students any institutional grants or scholarships?

I understand that this is probably a university-specific matter, but please share any personal accounts because it would help to give me a better idea of how financing a second bachelor's may work. Thank you.

The cap on federal loans is hard and you will run into it pretty quickly, depending on how many credits you earned in your first degree. I know this from experience. You'd have to apply for high interest, variable rate stuff from a private bank. And they'll want a co-signer with a good income to approve your loans.

That said, I wouldn't do it if I were you (again from experience), even if you found financing. If you completed an undergraduate degree in mathematics, you might find that taking another full undergraduate degree in a different subject isn't going to be "enough" for you. Just think about it. All of your peers will have less experience, less math, and less time than you have had being a student. The courses will likely move at a slower pace fit for those students because that's who the courses are designed for.

I would agree with the general sentiment that you're bettering trying to move on to a graduate program that will let you make up missing undergrad pre-reqs quickly. Having a degree in math should help speed up that process. But I think a second degree is a big waste of time. Find a school that let's you carefully plan out the pre-reqs you'll need and move into a masters instead.

 

[twofish-quant]

Are you serious? You say this as if it's a fact...yet looks like it's all based on a feeling you get and a broad generalization of people who work professionally.

Yes, it is an observation of people that I worked with in the past professionally. (Hint, if a manager resents or is threatened by an employee with more schooling, it's a very bad place for a Ph.D. to work at, and you'd better consider moving before you get moved.)

The other thing is that feelings are important.

Firstly, I was throwing a little bit of humor with the whole "you're hired", obviously you didn't catch on, but in any case...I think you paint too bleak of a picture whereas I'm pretty sure my assessment of the every man's perception of two degrees is a little more based on reality.

There is no "every man." Every company is different. Every employer is different. People live in different realities. Also there is a massive selection effect. If you have two bachelors, you are more likely to work at a company which views them positively.

 

[mal4mac]

^ Could someone comment on this? I mean it does seem like a better idea to take classes to prepare for a MS (versus going back for a second bachelors), but I don't want to end up unemployable or unable to go graduate school because of no research experience.

The situation in Europe is different to the US.

I could see you doing an MSc in Engineering/Science in the UK and then going on to do a PhD in something "hot" that uses applied maths (i.e., anything - nanotechnology, bioinformatics, you name it...)

The "graduate school" and "no research experience" problems don't occur in the UK because (i) we don't have graduate school (ii) we don't expect research experience of BSc students - a tough "final year" project that *may* include original research is the nearest equivalent...

 

[H2Bro]

The situation in Europe is different to the US.

Does UK also have the Bologna structure of education, or 3 years undergrad, 2 years masters, 3 years phd? I am looking into doing engineering in Norway (its free if you can speak Norwegian) and I'm curious if you can speak about how the requirements and education -> job process works elsewhere in Europe.

 

[daveyinaz]

People live in different realities.

Couldn't have said it better myself...the only difference between you and I is that I like to call my reality the real world...but hey, no hard feelings...good luck with your reality. :)

 

[H2Bro]

Couldn't have said it better myself...the only difference between you and I is that I like to call my reality the real world...but hey, no hard feelings...good luck with your reality. :)

Everyone calls their reality the real world. That's the meaning of the word "reality". The salient obstacles and structures of action we individually face constitute our personal realities; the immediacy and apparent objectivity of these facts lead us to conclude they must be externally real and independent of ourselves - the real world.

a bit too philosophical, but it goes to show that depending on what kind of pools of competition you enter a second bachelors may either help or hinder, but regardless is usually making up for lost time/taking three steps forward and two steps back.

 

[daveyinaz]

Everyone calls their reality the real world. That's the meaning of the word "reality". The salient obstacles and structures of action we individually face constitute our personal realities; the immediacy and apparent objectivity of these facts lead us to conclude they must be externally real and independent of ourselves - the real world.

a bit too philosophical, but it goes to show that depending on what kind of pools of competition you enter a second bachelors may either help or hinder, but regardless is usually making up for lost time/taking three steps forward and two steps back.

I agree with you up to a point...I would technically call "personal reality" either perception or interpretation of the real world and it's occurrences...but on the other hand, it was also supposed to be a humorous remark aimed at ending the exchange between twofish and I as to not further instigate a flame war or whatever the kids are calling it these days.

 

[twofish-quant]

The salient obstacles and structures of action we individually face constitute our personal realities; the immediacy and apparent objectivity of these facts lead us to conclude they must be externally real and independent of ourselves - the real world.

You get into deep philosophical issues when you talk about "social reality" which is different from "physical reality." For example, the speed of light happens to be the same for everyone, and gravity works the same. So if you stand on a tall building and jump expecting to fly, it's not going to happen. In physics, there is one shared reality. This makes things easy. You drop an apple, you see what happens, and you can assume that the rules of apple dropping apply whether you are on Time Square or on Alpha Centauri. You can assume that if you drop an apple, then the next time you drop an apple, it will behave in more or less the same way. You can isolate the force of gravity from other forces.

For things in marketing, it's very different. Whether a second bachelors will help or hurt depends on your particular situation, and people just live in different versions of "social reality." Also you get into deep issues of causality. In physics there is a relatively simple causality model. I drop an apple. It falls. I drop an another apple. It also falls.

People aren't that simple. I tell someone a joke. They laugh. I tell them exactly the same joke five seconds later, and it's not as funny because they've heard it before.

Just as an example of how "social reality" works differently in different places, and how things can blow up. Someone gives a speech and asks "any questions." Among astrophysicists, if you start asking aggressive questions challenging the speech, it's considered a sign of respect, and asking an aggressive question is considered a positive thing since it increases your social standing.

Among business managers, publicly asking aggressive questions challenging the speech is considered a sign of disrespect, and can get you into a lot of trouble, since people will consider you rude and stupid for asking those questions.

You have different social realities (and things get really messy when you have business managers who are astrophysicists, since it's not often clear what the rules are).

Depending on what kind of pools of competition you enter a second bachelors may either help or hinder, but regardless is usually making up for lost time/taking three steps forward and two steps back.

Sure and one way of dealing with "social truth" is to drop apples in as many different situations as you can and see what happens. If it turns out that if drop an apple in the wrong way and at the wrong time, it could turn into a armed hand grenade, then this is useful information.

So if I've dropped an apple and it's blown up in my face, this could be useful information for you.

 

[MathMarvel]

I'm currently working on my second bachelor's degree. I got my first one in theoretical math and decided that I didn't want to go into that field. I entered the workforce only to find myself working 60 hours a week in a gun factory and decided that I should probably go back to school. Right now I'm working on a B.S. in chemical physics and am probably going to go to grad school when the time comes.

I've been able to finance this year using scholarships, savings from my old job, and the maximum allowable $12,500 offered in government loans. If you have decent credit you should be able to get loans from a private lender if you are really serious about getting back into school. I would also check into the scholarships that the schools you are looking at offer. I was surprised to find out that I may qualify for a scholarship here that will basically cover all of my school related expenses.

I'm guessing you're about as fed up with math as I was, but depending on your background you might be able to go to grad school in another somewhat related field like computer science, physics, or statistics. That might be your best option if it is available to you.