1. Limited time only! Sign up for a free 30min personal tutor trial with Chegg Tutors
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Finding average back emf

  1. Mar 8, 2009 #1
    A motor with a brush-and-commutator arrangement has a circular coil with radius 2.5 cm and 150 turns of wire. The magnetic field has magnitude 0.06 T and the coil rotates at 440 rev/min.

    What is the average back emf?

    i have tried this

    Flux=Magnetix Field*Area
    Here r=2.5cm=2.5*10^-2m
    Avarage Emf=N*Flux/Time
    Speed=440 rpm=440/60=7.3333
    Average Emf=Flux*150/Time

    so average Emf = 0.06*phi*r^2*150 / 0.136363 = 0.1295 V

    but, my answer is wrong..

    please advise!
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 8, 2009 #2
    help please.... :cry:
  4. Mar 8, 2009 #3


    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Your "time" is the time, in seconds, for one complete revolution of the coil.

    Note, however, that flux does not simply increase from zero to 0.06*pi*r^2 during this time. You'll have to think more carefully about how the flux varies during a revolution of the coil.

    Welcome to PF :smile:
  5. Mar 8, 2009 #4
    why it's not increase from zero to 0.06*pi*r^2 ????
    i cant think other method :(
  6. Mar 8, 2009 #5


    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    think about the projection of the coil onto a plane perp to mag field, this feeds into the area used to calculate flux & so the instantaneous emf

    then consider the average of a sinuosoid...
  7. Mar 8, 2009 #6


    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Another way to think about it, flux depends on the angle between the rotating coil and the magnetic field. It may help for you to draw a figure, or look at a figure in your text book.
  8. Mar 8, 2009 #7
    the angle is 90 degree rite??


    Emf = NBA.sin(theta).w

    after did the calculation, i ended up Emf = 0.81 V

    but, my answer is also wrong...
  9. Mar 8, 2009 #8


    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    the angle is continuously changing with time at a constant rate. Need to think how this affects EMF - it will be a function of time. Then how to average the produced EMF

    so - peak emf is at 90deg, but the angle varies with time
  10. Mar 9, 2009 #9
    i don't understand :cry:
  11. Mar 9, 2009 #10


    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    you've written the EMF is

    EMF = N.B.A.cos(theta)

    theta is the angle bewteen a vector perpindicluar to the coil plane & field. As the coil is rotating theta varies linearly with t

    so let
    theta(t) = w.t

    where, w is the angular frequency

    so as a function of t
    EMF(t) = N.B.A.cos(w.t)

    so when you average over a full period of rotation, what is the average of the cos(w.t) term?
  12. Mar 9, 2009 #11
    is it..

    d (cos wt) / dt ?????

    so, -w sin wt ???
  13. Mar 9, 2009 #12


    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    why are you differentiating? a derivative gives you an instantaneous rate of change

    what gives you an average, do you know about rms?
  14. Mar 9, 2009 #13
    i just how to find Vmax with rms..
    Vrms = 0.707 * Vo
    the rest i know nothing :shy:
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2009
  15. Mar 9, 2009 #14
    please help me...
    i'm so clueless...
    and really dunno how to do.. :cry::cry::cry:
  16. Mar 9, 2009 #15


    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    No, the angle is changing, since the magnet is rotating. Sometimes it is 90 degrees, but it keeps changing.

    That's almost right. Here are a few questions to get on track:

    1. What units must w have in this equation?
    2. What does the brush-and-commutator do? (This will modify the sin(theta) term somewhat.)
    3. Have you taken calculus yet?
  17. Mar 9, 2009 #16


    User Avatar
    Homework Helper

    sorry i have re-read the posting and nee to make some corrections, so summarising where we are at:

    The flus through the coil is given by
    [tex]\Phi = NBACos(wt)[/tex]

    Then the induced EMF is by the reat of change of flux
    [tex]EMF= -\frac{d \Phi}{dt} = -\frac{d}{dt} (NBA.Cos(\omega t)) = \omega NBA.Sin(\omega t) [/tex]

    you were correct to differentiate, do you know what [tex](\omega t) [/tex] is?

    Now you must find the average of the EMF. As mentioned by Redbelly the commutator arrangement will change the EMF slightly.

    Think about what the sin function look like:
    - It starts at 0, rises to 1 then drops back to 0
    - then drops to -1 then and rise back to 0, then repeats
    So the EMF will continuosly vary from positive to negative unless we do soemthing about it. Think about the affect of the commutator and brush arrangement here as Redbelly suggested.
  18. Mar 9, 2009 #17
    hi all..
    i managed to do this..
    thanks a lot for your explanations...
  19. Mar 10, 2009 #18
    for point 2
    do you mean that the sin wave will be rectified because of the use of commutator?
    then the average value will be 1/%pi of the maximum value.
  20. Mar 10, 2009 #19


    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Hi, welcome to PF :smile:

    Yes, exactly.

    Hmmm, not quite ... care to recheck your calculation?
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Similar Threads - Finding average Date
Finding Velocity average? Nov 5, 2017
Finding the average energy in an RLC circuit Jun 14, 2017