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  1. Feb 5, 2004 #1
    Bah. At the aerospace/mechanical sub-forum, I have not recieved any opinions or new facts regarding my topic, The Recycling of Reaction Mass by Linear Wormholes. I'm hoping that the jolly-fellows here shall give me their comments.


    In my mind, I tried to overcome the horrendous problem of having to carry every gram of reaction mass with your space-craft. Surely, how could a person using three dimensions recycle mass without having the recycled fuel slow down the craft? In three-dimensions, Newton's Third Law could be a curse to conservative space-farers. But what if a person didn't limit himself to the tri-dimensional physics, but exceeded them?
    My theory is that, by using a linear arrangement of wormholes and engine, one could achieve high speeds with little fuel.
    A little diagram to show what I mean:
    |••• |===| ••••|
    The object in the middle is the engine, probably a NERVA type reactor that simply pushes the reaction mass (•••) out the back by using heat. Or, if one wanted to be a little more futuristic, the engine could be a plasma that is propelled by electro-magnetic fields.
    the two arc shaped figures are the wormholes, the right being the entry point, and, the left being the exit. By utilizing the casimir effect on a large scale, one could create wormholes big enough to let a little matter go through. (The plasma propulsion method would be more suited for the wormholes, as the plasma stream could be modified to be thinner/thicker depending on the casimir effect's effeciency.
    But there are many flaws to my design.
    What if momentum is lost when the reaction mass enters the wormholes? The slower fuel from the exit wormhole would upset the balance of perpetual fuel replenishment, thus slowing it down.
    How could one move the wormholes with the ship? Perhaps an electro-magnetic field applied to the wormholes, (after giving them a charge) could do the trick.
    Is there another method to expand/create wormholes? The casimir effect seems adequete enough, but other situations might arise for the need of grand ships that would require a more effective way of throuting the wormholes.
    Thus, I finish my virtual manuscript. Comments are required so as to perfect the theoritical design of it. If you would be so kind as to participate in perfection, state your opinions.


    I implore you, state your opinions!
  2. jcsd
  3. Feb 10, 2004 #2
    How would you create/find wormholes?
  4. Feb 10, 2004 #3
    By utilization of the casimir effect on a large scale, most likely. To be honest, I really don't know what we'll use for expanding and/or creating wormholes in the (near) future. I've heard of an idea known as vacuum squeezing, but I don't know the details on how that works.
  5. Feb 10, 2004 #4
    Stablity of wormhole throats can only be achieved with exotic matter, i.e. matter with negative energy density. Unless you can dig some of that up en masse, I think there will be some problems with your idea.
  6. Feb 10, 2004 #5
    Wouldn't it be en neg-mass? Eh, I guess I have just achieved an honour in the order of high-nitpickyness.

    I know that one has to thread a wormhole with exotic matter to stabilize it, but the only source of negative energy/matter I can think of is the space between casimir effect plates/spheres. Perhaps nanotechnology is the answer for this, with small machines microns apart, letting the vacuum energy accumilate rapidly.

    And yet, nanotechnology seems to be the answer for everything.
  7. Feb 10, 2004 #6


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    I suspect your nanomachines would have to be working at least at the angstrom scale, if not the fermi scale.
  8. Feb 11, 2004 #7
    That is true, but by the time we actually create/expand wormholes, we should have the proper nanotechnology.

    Anyway, I have recently heard of the inertialess drive. I think that it uses an equal amount of matter-exotic matter, and a simple reaction drive to achieve high speeds. Using negative energy and such, wouldn't this be more feasible than a wormhole? To stabilize a one-meter throat of said wormhole would take up more negative mass than our Jovian neighbour. But with an inertialess drive, you would only need around a thousand negative-tons or so of exotic matter. Compared to wormholes, inertialess drives are much more efficient for traveling interstellar distances.

    The main problem though, is how are we going to contain this negative matter? Perhaps we don't even need to contain it, and we simply emit so much exotic matter that inertia is effectively canceled out without the containment. But still, that would require too much negative energy. Our best bet is to find out how we can interact with exotic matter. The only interaction I know of right now, is that of gravity/inertia. If negative energy opposes inertia as well as gravity, maybe by spinning a cylinder with the exotic matter produced within would cause it to concentrate in the middle. Or better yet, why not make the spinning cylinder the casimir engine? And, to make the most insane of ideas, why not make the casimir engines into a casimir rocket? By making many of the exotic matter producers spin at different rates, you could shoot the negative energy out the back to produce thrust. To contain the neg. matter, you would spin the engines really fast. To allow the exotic energy to expand, you would stop the inertial motion of the casimir rings/cylinders.

    Seems like a thread in a thread to me. More comments, I guess.
  9. Feb 13, 2004 #8
    Expensive screen though (sigh).
  10. Feb 13, 2004 #9
    I honestly do not know what your point is by saying that.
  11. Feb 13, 2004 #10
    Hi Lord Flasheart,

    If space/time is fractalic by nature, then Cazimir efect is not a question of scale because the nature of a fractal is self similarity upon scales.

    In that case by tuning our systems to some invariant of space/time
    fractal, we can travel among its scales.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2004
  12. Feb 13, 2004 #11
    Hail, Organic.

    That seems like an interesting idea. Actually, one would need (a) large casimir engine(s) to supply the negative energy for a thousand tonne craft. Sure, a fractal has the similarities in effect, but not in strength and production capabilities. Casimir engines are like ground to orbital chemo-rockets: They only work effectively when you have them built big enough. You can't send a probe/ship up into space using very small amounts of chemical fuel. You need a tower of turbopumps and propellant and oxidizers to send something up to orbit. (Eh, on Earth of course. Things would be different on Luna or Mars.) Nice theory, though. Perhaps you could perfect it and prove me wrong. *grins*

    I think there is something you should look up in a book: Ring, by Stephen Baxter. It contains a propulsion system that works by creating a domain wall: Literally, a sheet of antigravity not based on negative energy. It would be bounded with cosmic string, and the Pauli Exclusion Principle would be suppresed. It is apparent that when the four forces unite into a single superforce, (created by high temperatures dwarfing those of stellar plasma) there would remain defects in three-dimension space. Two dimensional defects, like cosmic string and domain walls, would effectively push a craft through space. Unfortunately, I cannot quote the book exactly. However, I have the page numbers on which the talk of this unique propulsion system appears: pages 252 to 262.

    Glad to be of service to you, Organic. Over and out.
  13. Feb 13, 2004 #12
    Hi Lord Flasheart,

    What I mean is that if we can tune our system's mass (like changing a variable value) where saving Cazimir effect as a constant or vice versa, maybe we can find the efficiency working-point to make this travel for real.
  14. Feb 14, 2004 #13
    That makes coherant sense. It'd be very hard to manufacture the casimir engine. Mass can be modified by making modules that can be connected and disconnected. After all, the first mission with such a system will most likely be rugged, compact, and a jack-of-all-missions. The Apollo missions were very tight in living space, and the missions minimized total dry mass of the habs and the computers. Anyway, if the missions require a bit more exotic matter, the engines would simply accumulate more of it in the inertial tanks. Indeed, this system has a replenishable, if not infinite, source of (negative) energy. The rockets of this age still require fuel that they have to store with them on a journey.

    You know, I wonder why they never thought of this. Somewhere there's something I'm forgetting, or they just haven't looked inwards at this system enough.
  15. Feb 14, 2004 #14
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2004
  16. Feb 14, 2004 #15

    I appreciate the link, but why don't you post it in the math forums instead of here? You'll get more hits that way. I had to move this thread from Aerospace-Engineering to General Astronomy, and then to here.
  17. Feb 14, 2004 #16
    The mentor of Math forum moves most of my threads to theory development forum, so I have no place to go but to this forum.

    Any way, I think that today's Math language cannot deal with complexity of real world because its fundamental concepts like sets and numbers are not based on concepts like redundancy, uncertainty, symmetry, entropy, information's clarity and so on, that were developed during the last 80 years, but yet did not find their way to pure mathematics and yet did not change Math language fundamental concepts.

    I think that without this paradigms changes, our theoretical tools will stay behind and will not give their full contribution to develop our future science.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2004
  18. Feb 16, 2004 #17
    I feel like I've allowed subversive advertising to appear under my name. Oh well. Good luck with the theoretical tool modification.

    Anyway, we must learn the effects of inertia on exotic matter. If negative energy is opposing to it, then we have found an effective containment system. We can even increase/decrease the density of the exotic matter by simply changing the spin rate of the inertial containers. Think of it: An effective storage system for the throating of wormholes, Alcubierre warp drives, inertialess drives, and exotic matter rockets! We can do it with Casimir rings and spinning cylinders, which are relatively easy to manufacture. Hell, we could build a starship in this century that utilizes these techniques! Not only would exotic matter containment provide an effective travel system, it could provide instantaneous communication by small wormholes throated just enough to allow radio waves through. After all, who wouldn't want to hear the first wormhole message from our nearest neighbour?

    "Earth, this is the United Nations Ship Enterprise hailing from Alpha Centauri..."

    The point is, we can do it. We can send many a spacecraft to other suns, to other worlds. To future homes of humanity, within a human lifetime.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2004
  19. Feb 19, 2004 #18
    The main priority in the research of exotic matter is what can hold it. If inertia is opposing to negative energy in the same way gravity is, then we can have high density storage over long trips. And that's where inertial-containment vessels come in.

    Inertia, in the form of centri-pedal/fugal forces, could exert a repulsive effect to the exotic matter, holding it in place where there is the weakest effect of inertia. Thus it would be in the center of a spinning container. As the negative energy accumilates, it will occupy the space in stronger inertial regions. Once this happens, near inertialess drive will be attained, and the ability to accelerate to just under the speed of light will be attainable in mere hours, minutes. But if you're looking for inertialess drives, that's impossible with our technology. Structural stress will exceed the limits for the containers, inertial-based or of the common container type. Therefore, a better system will be needed for travel to the stars.

    The Alcubierre warp-drive is attainable with the high-density storage system, but the formation of a space-time bubble around the ship you would think to be hard. That is not so! Again, centrifugal force comes to the rescue: By making an open ring connected to the back of the starship, you could form the exotic matter into the needed shape, which would "tilt" the bubble through space. A feasible idea, if you had the motive and the money. It is easier than wormholes, and a much better proposition than the inertialess drive. Perhaps we can go to the ever-so-distant stars, and come back in time for tea/coffee.

    All in favour for a trip to Tau Ceti, say "Aye".
  20. Feb 29, 2004 #19
    Applications of exotic matter

    In the hopes of keeping this topic from becoming an ex-topic, I would like to explain the various applications of exotic matter:

    1) Exotic matter can be used for interstellar travel and communication; I.E. Alcubierre warp drives, inertialess propulsion, and wormholes. The latter can be used to connect distant points in space together for both accessibility to other worlds or for the talking to far-flung peoples, say for example, Martian colonists or pioneers at Barnard's Star.

    2) On a more down-to-Earth scale, exotic matter could allow the easy exiting of our gravity well. An easy few tonnes of said substance could let a single person in a spacesuit with a small rocket strapped on his back take a quick trip to LEO.

    3) Ah, the oddball-est of all ideas. In fact, this could practically fund many a mission to the stars: Exotic matter land transportation. In the spirit of the Back to the Future trilogy's second movie, those fantastic 'hoverboards' and flying cars could achieve true reality.

    'tis amazing what can be done with industrial exotic matter. We can create cheap land transportation; We can go from terra firma to vacuus area; We can speak instantly to people at other stars; We can go to other stars.
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