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Homework Help: Formula relationship

  1. Mar 13, 2005 #1

    tony873004

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    Show that
    [tex]4\pi^{2}/G = 1yr^{2} M_{Sun}/AU^{3} [/tex]
    and that therefore Kepler's 3rd Law reduces to
    [tex]P^{2}=a^{3}/(m_{1}+m_{2})[/tex]
    if the period P is expressed in years, the semimajor axis a is expressed in AU, and the sum of the masses is expressed in solar masses.

    [tex]G = 6.672*10^{-11}Nm^{2}/kg^{2}[/tex]
    [tex]N = kg m/s^{2}[/tex]
    [tex]1 year = 3.15581*10^{7}seconds[/tex]
    [tex]1 AU = 1.49598*10^{11}meters[/tex]
    [tex]1 Solar mass = 1.9891*10^{30}kg[/tex]


    [tex]\frac{4\pi^{2}}{6.672*10^{-11} \frac{N m^{2}}{kg^{2}}}=\frac {3.15581*10^{7}s^{2}*1.9891*10^{30}kg}{1.49598*10^{11}m^{3}}[/tex]


    Substitute [tex]kg m/s^{2} for N[/tex]

    [tex]\frac{4\pi^{2}}{6.672*10^{-11} \frac{kg\frac{m}{s^{2}} m^{2}}{kg^{2}}}=\frac {3.15581*10^{7}s^{2}*1.9891*10^{30}kg}{1.49598*10^{11}m^{3}}[/tex]

    in the left side of the equation, cancel kg's and combine m's

    [tex]\frac{4\pi^{2}}{6.672*10^{-11} \frac{\frac{m^{3}}{s^{2}}}{kg}}=\frac {3.15581*10^{7}s^{2}*1.9891*10^{30}kg}{1.49598*10^{11}m^{3}}[/tex]

    re-write the equation

    [tex]{4\pi^{2} * 1.49598*10^{11}m^{3} = 6.672*10^{-11} \frac{\frac{m^{3}}{s^{2}}}{kg} * 3.15581*10^{7}s^{2}*1.9891*10^{30}kg [/tex]

    The m^3 on the right cancels with the m^3 on the left
    the s^2's in the left side of the equation cancel with each other since one is in the denomanator of a fraction, and the other one isn't.
    The kg's in the left side of the equation cancel with each other since one is in the denomanator of a fraction, and the other one isn't.

    [tex]{4\pi^{2} * 1.49598*10^{11} = 6.672*10^{-11} * 3.15581*10^{7}*1.9891*10^{30} [/tex]

    and when I compute this I get:

    [tex]591702901743.965 = 4.1881622988912*10^{27}[/tex]
    and that's just not right!! Where did I go wrong?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2005
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 13, 2005 #2
    [tex] 1 \mbox{year} = 3.15581 \cdot 10^7 \mbox{s} \Longrightarrow (1 \mbox{year})^2 = (3.15581 \cdot 10^7 \mbox{s})^2 \neq 3.15581 \cdot 10^7 \mbox{s}^2[/tex]

    similarly for [tex]\mbox{AU}^3[/tex].
     
  4. Mar 13, 2005 #3

    tony873004

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    :smile: Thanks, Data. That's the 2nd time you've bailed me out in the last 2 days.

    I also made a small error in G. Should be [tex]6.673*10^{-11}[/tex], not [tex]6.672*10^{-11}[/tex]

    So this should change my final line before computing the numbers to:

    [tex]{4\pi^{2} * 1.49598*10^{33} = 6.673*10^{-11} * 3.15581*10^{14}*1.9891*10^{30} [/tex]

    which gives me
    [tex]5.90589231677665*10^{34} = 4.1887900210583*10^{34}[/tex]

    They're not too different. At least they're in the same magnitude instead of being 16 magnitudes apart. I'm wondering if this is as good as it gets or if I made another error somewhere?

    Any idea how to do the 2nd part of this question, how does this cause Kepler's 3rd law to reduce to [tex]P^{2}=a^{3}/(m_{1}+m_{2})[/tex] ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2005
  5. Mar 13, 2005 #4
    Almost. You forgot to square the 3.15581, and cube the 1.49598!

    The second question is a really ambiguous one. In order to get it to that form, you must assume that both sides of the equation are unitless (otherwise, you keep the fraction [tex]\frac{\mbox{yr}^2}{\mbox{AU}^3}[/tex] on the right side of the equality to balance units). This in turn means you just assume the result for P is in years, etc., which is silly. Anyways, Kepler's Third Law is

    [tex]P^2 = \frac{a^3}{m_1+m_2}\cdot \frac{4\pi^2}{G}[/tex]

    Just substitute in the equality that you proved in the first part, and see how far you can get~
     
  6. Mar 13, 2005 #5

    tony873004

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    Thanks, Data. I squared and cubed those numbers, and now the answers are equal. I got the second part too. I had to make a new value for G, which equaled 4pi^2, they cancelled out and I was left the equation I was asked to justify.
     
  7. Mar 14, 2005 #6
    You set [tex]G = 4 \pi^2[/tex]? With what justification?
     
  8. Mar 14, 2005 #7

    tony873004

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    [tex]G=6.673*10^{-11}N m^{2}/kg^{2}[/tex] , therefore
    [tex]G=6.673*10^{-11}kg (m/s^{2}) m^{2}/kg^{2}[/tex]

    substitute in the conversions from mks to AU, Solar Masses, Years

    0.00000000006673 * ((1 / 1.9891E+30) * (1 / 149598000000#) / (1 / 31558100) ^ 2#) * (1 / 149598000000# ^ 2 / (1 / 1.9891E+30) ^ 2)

    and magically the whole thing equals exactly 4pi^2
    Sorry, I didn't feel like TEXing it.

    By converting all the units in G to AU, Years, and Solar Masses. Now G cancels out with 4pi^2
    [tex]P^2 = \frac{a^3}{m_1+m_2}\cdot \frac{4\pi^2}{G}[/tex]

    reduces to

    [tex]P^{2}=a^{3}/(m_{1}+m_{2})[/tex]

    Which is what the question asked me to do.
     
  9. Mar 14, 2005 #8
    Ok, that's fine. Make sure you leave in the unit conversion term, though (ie. the magnitude equals the magnitude of [tex]4\pi^2[/tex], but there are still units hanging around that [tex]4\pi^2[/tex] does not carry). You really can't simplify it to the form in your question, as there's always a unitary conversion factor lying around. But whatever, I guess they want you to write it that way :)
     
  10. Mar 14, 2005 #9

    tony873004

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    Yeah, those units bugged me too. So I just dropped them all together 2 steps before my final answer. When the teacher talked about this one in class, everyone had a blank stare. But she hinted that this was the way to do it. At least I'll get effort points!!

    Thanks for all your help, Data!
     
  11. Mar 14, 2005 #10

    tony873004

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    I asked in class today. The units do carry down to the 1.0 computed with 4pi^2/G. Then when you replace the 4pi^2/G in the Kepler's law with 1.0&units, the units cancel with the units in the rest of Kepler's law so that P^2 comes out in years.
     
  12. Mar 14, 2005 #11
    I agree, but then the [tex]P, \ a, \ m_1, \ m_2[/tex] in your new equation aren't the same ones in the original equation (the new ones are unitless). Essentially the point is that [tex] \mbox{time} \neq \frac{\mbox{distance}}{\mbox{mass}}[/tex].
     
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